Talk of The Villages Florida

Talk of The Villages Florida (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/)
-   The Villages, Florida, General Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/)
-   -   Found white mercedes (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/found-white-mercedes-312836/)

FutureFloridian 11-07-2020 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windguy (Post 1857344)
Dealerships do not do body work. There are plenty of body shops nearby. She was definitely trying to avoid prosecution.

Some dealerships actually DO handle body work. My husband's BMW is currently in a dealership's body shop, awaiting repairs from being rear-ended by an idiot who was TEXTING while driving and didn't see that we were stopped.

Using a dealership for repair work, especially on imports, is often advisable, and was recommended by our insurance company.

Rosebud1949 11-07-2020 10:52 AM

Now to find the other hit and run driver...
 
Someone must know who the other driver was earlier this week. How would you feel if it was your relative who was mowed down

Buck Slade 11-07-2020 10:53 AM

How bad judgment can unnecessarily turn an accident into a multiple felony !
 
Anyone can cause or be involved in an accident. How they handle the circumstances following the accident makes all of the difference.
The vehicle driver should have stopped, turned on her hazard blinkers and exited the Mercedes to check if there were injuries. Observing obvious injuries; she should have immediately called 911 while simultaneously guarding the victims from other approaching traffic and enlisting the aid of the first individuals that stopped. The Villages is rife with highly qualified ex police, military, various medical personnel, EMTs and just very compassionate and competent citizens that would help until “first responders” arrived to take charge.
The driver should then immediately contact her insurance company and give them her side of the accident. They would advise her to not make a statement of guilt but be compassionate and cooperative with the police in the initial investigation and do all that she could to mitigate any additional damage to people and property.
The insurance company realizing a very real possibility of serious civil liability would send representatives to advise the driver, accompany her to any police or other interview, etc. depending upon the circumstances; they could send a representative (including lawyers) to the hospital. They would insure that the victims were receiving proper medical attention (especially if the victims lacked proper coverage or funds) and most importantly expressing compassion for the victims, without expressing guilt.

Any competent defense lawyer could argue with a prosecutor or jury that this 89 year old woman had an adverse reaction to a medication (how many 89 year olds do you know that don’t take some medication?) or was momentarily distracted for a variety of reasons. The odds are that she hadn’t been drinking about 11 in the morning. That she was a great-Grandmother that had lost her husband and was a loving person and may not have had other accidents (at this time; we don’t know details of her situation).
She is devastated by the accident and the injuries that she may be responsible for and it has ruined her life for what little time she has left.

She wouldn’t spend one day in jail but would probably lose her driving privileges, maybe permanently. Her insurance company would settle for a substantial amount to the victims. People would have sympathy for her, both neighbors and a jury.
Most importantly; after a time; she could look in the mirror and see a person that she could live with.

She threw all of that away ! When she callously drove away leaving victims seriously injured and maybe dying in the street; she became a criminal (felony # 1. Hit and run).
Attempting to have the damage resulting from the “incident” repaired to “cover up” the first felony results in (felony # 2. Hiding or altering evidence involved in a crime).

Because of her age, (unknown personal mental & physical health), Covid-19, etc, it is highly unlikely that she would be incarcerated. More likely to lose her driving privileges, be placed on probation with certain limitations and face a very large civil law suit.
She had plenty of time to recover from the initial shock, panic, guilt, confusion and do the “right thing”. Her refusal with multiple opportunities casts doubt in the minds of most as to her “character” and she will pay dearly for that.

Our parents taught us that all of us are fallible and can make a mistake. However, as soon as possible, man or woman up, take responsibility, be contrite and take your appropriate medicine if that is required. You will be better off in the long run, by far.
( my apologies for the length but I think that it is an important subject and I have made plenty of mistakes in my 82 years but I own them)

PugMom 11-07-2020 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 1857521)
And then, with her cognitive impairment, arranged for the car to be repaired in Gainesville and furthermore dyed her hair brown????????

no, i hear ya, it's crossed many minds, & that hair dye thing stands out, too. it's a very valid point

DAVES 11-07-2020 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 1857521)
And then, with her cognitive impairment, arranged for the car to be repaired in Gainesville and furthermore dyed her hair brown????????

Not an excuse or a judgment. Unfortunately my grandmother had severe Alzheimer's.
She lasted over 10 years with it. My mom refused to put her mother in a home and so she lived with us. From sad memories. At times she seemed, was perfectly normal. At other times, I do not want to go into details but I hope it never happens to you, yours or anyone you know. Her other children, they too have died of old age but I cannot forget they mostly claimed to be too busy when my mother needed help caring for also their mother.
mAY IT NEVER HAPPEN TO YOU AND YOURS.

Gulfcoast 11-07-2020 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrprez (Post 1857328)
Her “children”? You mean the ones that are in their 60s or 70s?

I'm in my 50's and my 85 year old mom recently decided to stop driving - perfectly clean driving record, good auto insurance, she just felt that her reflexes weren't what they used to be. She now either uses the free shuttle at her Independent Living residence or I drive her places.

Hearing about this horrible accident makes me grateful that my mom decided to stop driving well before she became an unsafe driver.

Mrprez 11-07-2020 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gulfcoast (Post 1857574)
I'm in my 50's and my 85 year old mom recently decided to stop driving - perfectly clean driving record, good auto insurance, she just felt that her reflexes weren't what they used to be. She now either uses the free shuttle at her Independent Living residence or I drive her places.

Hearing about this horrible accident makes me grateful that my mom decided to stop driving well before she became an unsafe driver.

Mine was 87 when she passed away. She still drove to the store which was in the neighborhood. I would like to think that she would have called it when she was ready.

My FIL was a total hazard and the kids decided to give the car to the youngest. No more driving for him.

Gulfcoast 11-07-2020 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrprez (Post 1857588)
Mine was 87 when she passed away. She still drove to the store which was in the neighborhood. I would like to think that she would have called it when she was ready.

My FIL was a total hazard and the kids decided to give the car to the youngest. No more driving for him.

My mom was driving to/from the store, the bank and doctors appts. She probably could have driven safely for at least a few more years but she had seen one too many of her friends get into accidents. She decided to stop driving before she had to stop driving. In her case, the shuttle service in her community makes living w/o a car more doable.

Kilmacowen 11-07-2020 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosebud1949 (Post 1857552)
Someone must know who the other driver was earlier this week. How would you feel if it was your relative who was mowed down

They got the plate number and car was a jaguar. I'm sure the police have apprehended the driver by now.

Gulfcoast 11-07-2020 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 1857521)
And then, with her cognitive impairment, arranged for the car to be repaired in Gainesville and furthermore dyed her hair brown????????

Yeah, this doesn't sound like dementia to me. There's too much complex planning involved in the cover up.

Hopefully, she has family members who will step up for her. I would imagine that there will be some serious legal issues to contend with.

Gulfcoast 11-07-2020 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilmacowen (Post 1857593)
They got the plate number and car was a jaguar. I'm sure the police have apprehended the driver by now.

I'm surprised that there has been no mention of an arrest.

larcha 11-07-2020 02:19 PM

Felony
 
In most states leaving the scene of an accident is a felony.

graciegirl 11-07-2020 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 1857521)
And then, with her cognitive impairment, arranged for the car to be repaired in Gainesville and furthermore dyed her hair brown????????

There was an ad, a very misleading one that showed a lady with white hair, just underneath the story on the hit and run. I think we all assumed the picture was of the woman who left the scene. Go back and look at the whole thing again closely. There was no film of a woman relating to the hit and run, it was another issue on the elderly that the photographs were of.

Westie Man 11-07-2020 02:32 PM

Ma Barker
 
or Bonnie Parker ?

sjd7767 11-07-2020 02:44 PM

As far as I've read, no report stated she took the car to the Mercedes dealership. However, out of curiosity I called Mercedes-Benz of Gainesville and was told they DO NOT have a paint and body shop nor do they do paint and/or body repair. So she took it to somewhere else in Gainesville. Gainesville is roughly 65 miles away. Quick search reveals at least ten local auto body repair shops within 5 or so miles of TV. Read into that as you wish.

Either way, my thoughts and prayers go out to the injured party.

patfla06 11-07-2020 03:01 PM

Remember, witnesses said she had white hair. She colored her hair.
A clear example of trying to get away with what she did.

retiredguy123 11-07-2020 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjd7767 (Post 1857630)
As far as I've read, no report stated she took the car to the Mercedes dealership. However, out of curiosity I called Mercedes-Benz of Gainesville and was told they DO NOT have a paint and body shop nor do they do paint and/or body repair. So she took it to somewhere else in Gainesville. Gainesville is roughly 65 miles away. Quick search reveals at least ten local auto body repair shops within 5 or so miles of TV. Read into that as you wish.

Either way, my thoughts and prayers go out to the injured party.

Based on your post, your conclusion that she took the car somewhere else in Gainesville may not be accurate either. Even though the Mercedes dealer doesn't have a body shop doesn't mean that she didn't take the car there and the dealer hired out the body work to a nearby repair shop.

Marathon Man 11-07-2020 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjd7767 (Post 1857630)
As far as I've read, no report stated she took the car to the Mercedes dealership. However, out of curiosity I called Mercedes-Benz of Gainesville and was told they DO NOT have a paint and body shop nor do they do paint and/or body repair. So she took it to somewhere else in Gainesville. Gainesville is roughly 65 miles away. Quick search reveals at least ten local auto body repair shops within 5 or so miles of TV. Read into that as you wish.

Either way, my thoughts and prayers go out to the injured party.

That an 89 yo woman assumes that you take a car to the dealer to get any type of repair down.

She no longer has white hair, and her damaged car was taken many miles away. That's a pretty damning story. No need to over think.

Gulfcoast 11-07-2020 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marathon Man (Post 1857654)
That an 89 yo woman assumes that you take a car to the dealer to get any type of repair down.

She no longer has white hair, and her damaged car was taken many miles away. That's a pretty damning story. No need to over think.

Witnesses at the accident scene also say that she stopped and got out of her car briefly before driving away.

sjd7767 11-07-2020 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 1857637)
Based on your post, your conclusion that she took the car somewhere else in Gainesville may not be accurate either. Even though the Mercedes dealer doesn't have a body shop doesn't mean that she didn't take the car there and the dealer hired out the body work to a nearby repair shop.

Yeah, you're right. Good point. Like I said, I was just curious.

I still wish and pray all the best for a speedy recovery of the couple.

lovinganimals 11-07-2020 04:31 PM

[QUOTE=camaguey48;1857408]She may or may not have been at fault. However, leaving the scene cancels out that scenario; she probably panicked and left. I suppose her conscience was absent and trying to conceal her shameful action proves it. Hope the bikers recover.[/QUOTe

She may or may not have been at fault?! Are you serious? She hit 2 people with a CAR while they were on bikes. She got out, saw that and returned to the car and left! What is not her fault here?

Stu from NYC 11-07-2020 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrprez (Post 1857321)
Where is she going to go? Should they keep her locked up and come down with COVID? There are lots of other who were let loose on no bail. I certainly don’t condone her actions.

Sorry she got out of her car looked at what she did and ran off. Lock her up and if she gets covid oh well.

If you are going to offer bail it should be much higher. The life of the two people she hurt will never be the same.

Mrprez 11-07-2020 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC (Post 1857738)
Sorry she got out of her car looked at what she did and ran off. Lock her up and if she gets covid oh well.

If you are going to offer bail it should be much higher. The life of the two people she hurt will never be the same.

As a bicycle rider myself, who no longer feels safe, I agree with you 100%. I have zero compassion for this woman and she deserves everything that is coming at her. Unfortunately, at her age, justice may not be served in this case.

big guy 11-07-2020 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy (Post 1857249)
My mom voluntarily turned in her driver's license when she turned 90, even though she was driven around by her sons, even though she lives alone. My dad did not, and I would not let him drive me anywhere, and would tell him he was dangerous. He rear ended a car making a left turn as he didn't see it. My mom, the doctors took his license away. Its very difficult when one lives alone to give up driving, however, there is no excuse for leaving the scene. . .

I think the judge was too lenient with the $10,000 bail bond, because accidents will happen, but leaving the scene is a character flaw for taking responsibility.

My mother told me in her 70s that she would tell me when she was ready to give up driving. She went on a trip to Pittsburgh from Cleveland ( 2 hrs) to my brother's. She had taken many trips cross country in her 70s with no problem. She had driven her 27 ft motorhome cross country towing a car in her 60s without problem. When she returned from Pittsburgh, she handed me her keys. I asked her what happened, to which she replied, "Nothing, but I want to quit driving before something does happen". She looked exhausted and I think she didn't have a particularly good visit with my brother but I took her keys. I thought she would change her mind but she did not. She was 80. I had to drive her everywhere but that was OK with me. We all would have been devastated if she hit someone. She made it easy on us but turning her keys in. There was never a dent on her car which was a good indication that she had never hit anyone. I think 89 is too old to be driving, especially with all the walkers, bikers, trucks, roundabouts and confusing traffic conditions here.

Mrprez 11-08-2020 03:19 AM

We went to Orlando the other day to do some shopping and have a nice lunch at PF Chang’s. I was ready to hand over my keys after we returned home. I’ve never seen so many bad drivers in one place!

camaguey48 11-08-2020 04:43 AM

[QUOTE=lovinganimals;1857676]
Quote:

Originally Posted by camaguey48 (Post 1857408)
She may or may not have been at fault. However, leaving the scene cancels out that scenario; she probably panicked and left. I suppose her conscience was absent and trying to conceal her shameful action proves it. Hope the bikers recover.[/QUOTe

She may or may not have been at fault?! Are you serious? She hit 2 people with a CAR while they were on bikes. She got out, saw that and returned to the car and left! What is not her fault here?

I do not believe you read my whole post, sir or madam. Perhaps the cyclists veered into the car. Perhaps!!! Some cyclists ignore traffic laws such as running stop signs and traffic lights, passing between vehicles. It happens more often than you or I think. I'll state this again, sir or madam: She left the scene without rendering aid or calling the police. That action completely negates any opportunity to defend herself. Her deception by covering it up suggests someone was helping her. Perhaps!!! At 89 years of age, perhaps (there's that word again) she should not be driving.

Bay Kid 11-08-2020 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC (Post 1857738)
Sorry she got out of her car looked at what she did and ran off. Lock her up and if she gets covid oh well.

If you are going to offer bail it should be much higher. The life of the two people she hurt will never be the same.

She is cooked.

davem4616 11-08-2020 07:00 AM

Hopefully the 2 bikers will both recover and be able to lead normal lives

The driver of the car was in the wrong to not stop...if nothing else she could have called 911

This is one more example of how important it is to be a defensive driver...the bad drivers are out there.

Yesterday driving back to TV on Rolling Acres Road the car in front of us suddenly jammed on the brakes to stop and look at some young calves that were close to the road...then the driver realized he had a car in back of him....duh?

For some time now I've questioned the wisdom of allowing folks of any age renew their drivers license online...it would seem logical that at some age, be it 80 or whatever we seniors should have to retake a road test

I've heard all the complaints of 'taking peoples lives away when you take their license away' and they need a form of identification...driving a car is not 'a right' if they are a danger to others

My wife is on meds that her doctor has told her prohibit her from driving....so she doesn't. What is a concern though is that if that's the case, why isn't the medical profession obligated to inform the registry of motor vehicles that she is taking these meds? The registry could easily revoke the license and issue her a state ID card. If she gets off the meds and chooses to drive again, she could retake the road test.

VApeople 11-08-2020 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem4616 (Post 1857807)
it would seem logical that at some age, be it 80 or whatever we seniors should have to retake a road test.

In the good ole days, that is how it used to be in Florida. Everyone had to retake a road test every couple years.

When I was at Univ of Florida in the free-spirited 1960's, everyone had to go to the Highway Patrol to be re-tested. Basically, it was a test of our hearing and vision and our ability move around. Of course, in my early twenties, it was very easy.

I thought the test was wonderful because it let the Highway Patrol identify people who should not be operating a car. I have no idea why these tests were discontinued.

Madelaine Amee 11-08-2020 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larcha (Post 1857618)
In most states leaving the scene of an accident is a felony.

I live here because I love much about Florida, but I dislike their arcane laws geared to appeasing the elderly ..................

Most States, unfortunately Florida is not Most States. Florida has for years and years courted and coddled the elderly population and made their lives very comfortable ..... why, because of MONEY/ The Florida we live in now is very different from the Florida in years past. Florida is now a high tech State with excellent Universities and medical facilities. Young people can live here and work anywhere in the world due to technology, but many of our laws are still geared to the aged.

I know for a fact that your optician can no longer report your loss of sight to the Registry of Motor Vehicles. So you are out there traveling with people who have no right to be on the road because they cannot see. However, when they need to renew their license the loss of vision will be picked up during the eye test. Vision Requirements | Florida Tax Collector serving Sarasota County - Barbara Ford-Coates

Gulfcoast 11-08-2020 11:06 AM

This 89 year old woman is likely living alone or perhaps with an equally elderly spouse who she might even be a caregiver to. I don't know her story, I've just seen situations like this. She lives in a car dependent area and she needs to be able to get to the store/doctor's appts, etc. So she continues to drive beyond the point of safety. The idea of moving is overwhelming to people at this age - preparing a house for sale, packing up belongs, arranging movers, driving around and visiting multiple Independent or Assisted Living places is too much for them to handle alone, they are also concerned about being able to stay with a spouse in failing health. So they stay in their familiar environment and continue to drive even as their own vision, mobility, reflexes and mental sharpness decline. Maybe concerned family members have tried to convince her to move and she has been stubborn about staying in her home. Again, I don't know her story but I've seen similar situations.

retiredguy123 11-08-2020 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gulfcoast (Post 1858013)
This 89 year old woman is likely living alone or perhaps with an equally elderly spouse who she might even be a caregiver to. I don't know her story, I've just seen situations like this. She lives in a car dependent area and she needs to be able to get to the store/doctor's appts, etc. So she continues to drive beyond the point of safety. The idea of moving is overwhelming to people at this age - preparing a house for sale, packing up belongs, arranging movers, driving around and visiting multiple Independent or Assisted Living places is too much for them to handle alone, they are also concerned about being able to stay with a spouse in failing health. So they stay in their familiar environment and continue to drive even as their own vision, mobility, reflexes and mental sharpness decline. Maybe concerned family members have tried to convince her to move and she has been stubborn about staying in her home. Again, I don't know her story but I've seen similar situations.

Yes, The Villages is a car dependent area which is a problem even for younger healthy people who live alone. I think one of the most serious deficiencies here is a lack of transportation. If you have a medical issue, your car won't start, or you have an appointment that requires someone else to give you a ride, you may not have any viable options. Sometimes, calling 911 is the only option you have. I think this contributes to some people driving long after they should and results in more accidents. Where I lived up north, I could call a taxi and have it at my house within 15 minutes.

Stu from NYC 11-08-2020 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 1858034)
Yes, The Villages is a car dependent area which is a problem even for younger healthy people who live alone. I think one of the most serious deficiencies here is a lack of transportation. If you have a medical issue, your car won't start, or you have an appointment that requires someone else to give you a ride, you may not have any viable options. Sometimes, calling 911 is the only option you have. I think this contributes to some people driving long after they should and results in more accidents. Where I lived up north, I could call a taxi and have it at my house within 15 minutes.

One would think that there would be a strong demand for taxi's or other ride options.

Irregardless of this the woman should pay for her actions to the full extent of the law.

Gulfcoast 11-08-2020 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC (Post 1858048)
One would think that there would be a strong demand for taxi's or other ride options.

Irregardless of this the woman should pay for her actions to the full extent of the law.

I agree that she should be held accountable. While I can certainly sympathize that accidents can and do happen, this business of fleeing the scene and then attempting a cover up is really terrible. I don't know this woman or why she made such terrible decisions. Being elderly doesn't automatically make you a moral person.

Luger1988 11-08-2020 09:41 PM

both are Guilty Husband and Wife
 
They both knew what they did and they both tried to cover it up. Hope they get their asses sued all the way to the poor farm.

Stu from NYC 11-08-2020 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luger1988 (Post 1858165)
They both knew what they did and they both tried to cover it up. Hope they get their asses sued all the way to the poor farm.

At her age might be dead and buried before the case comes to trial.

EdFNJ 11-08-2020 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdFNJ (Post 1857269)
Deservedly they will take her DL away and hand her the keys to a new golf cart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAVES (Post 1857514)
I'm sure you are being amusing. I drive car, golf cart and ride a bike. In a golf cart?
She will be any safer for those around her? Likely she will then be uninsured.
To most truly important issues there are no simple and painless answers.

Quite obviously you missed the sarcasm and irony in my post.

NoMoSno 11-09-2020 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luger1988 (Post 1858165)
They both knew what they did and they both tried to cover it up. Hope they get their asses sued all the way to the poor farm.

She is a widow.

PennBF 11-09-2020 09:48 AM

You Can't Make it UP
 
You can't make it up! Not one person placing comments in this string of "hang her high" has the total facts. One rule of good management, which most of you have failed is to make sure you have all of the facts before rendering a decision! NONE OF YOU DO!. Without all the facts some want her to go to jail for life, some want all residents over the age of ??? to be retested to drive a car, some don't care about facts just want her put away, some have already reached the conclusion she dyed her hair drove to Gainesville and was having her car repaired at a dealer who doesn't even do body work, I could go on but you get the picture. The only real facts are 1.Assuming good witness's, she was driving the car, 2. She got out of the car 3.Drove off from the accident. 4.She may be 89? Does she have a serious mental problem. possible Age or Medically driven? Was she in a state of panic, (not that would excuse the actions but would be a possible cause of her actions?), Does she have a vision problem that may have contributed to the accident? did the bikers or bikes have lights, were either she or the bikers veering in and out of the lanes? Before all the naysayer's jump out of their chairs to dispute anything please make sure you have
solid facts to back your assertions. In no way would I excuse a person from such a terrible accident BUT I sure would want the facts before I hung them and also add any other person over the age of ??? from driving!

Stu from NYC 11-09-2020 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PennBF (Post 1858332)
You can't make it up! Not one person placing comments in this string of "hang her high" has the total facts. One rule of good management, which most of you have failed is to make sure you have all of the facts before rendering a decision! NONE OF YOU DO!. Without all the facts some want her to go to jail for life, some want all residents over the age of ??? to be retested to drive a car, some don't care about facts just want her put away, some have already reached the conclusion she dyed her hair drove to Gainesville and was having her car repaired at a dealer who doesn't even do body work, I could go on but you get the picture. The only real facts are 1.Assuming good witness's, she was driving the car, 2. She got out of the car 3.Drove off from the accident. 4.She may be 89? Does she have a serious mental problem. possible Age or Medically driven? Was she in a state of panic, (not that would excuse the actions but would be a possible cause of her actions?), Does she have a vision problem that may have contributed to the accident? did the bikers or bikes have lights, were either she or the bikers veering in and out of the lanes? Before all the naysayer's jump out of their chairs to dispute anything please make sure you have
solid facts to back your assertions. In no way would I excuse a person from such a terrible accident BUT I sure would want the facts before I hung them and also add any other person over the age of ??? from driving!

Welcome to TTOV where we do not always let all the facts get in our way.

From the facts available to me it sure appears she did a horrible thing. Assuming the accident was not totally her fault, her driving away and not looking to render assistance makes her guilty of all kinds of things.


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