At zonerboy...this is a double sided argument. Funny...I think the same about the cart drivers.

If I see a runner coming towards me I slow way down to make sure they can pass me safely. I am defensive driver and I would not try to stare down a runner to see who blinks first. I'm driving a 4000 lb car or a 700 lb golf cart and common sense tells me the walker or runner is going to be a lot worse off than me if I hit them.

I'm pretty sure you've never been a serious runner with those opinions. I ran every day 365 (ok maybe 350) for over 10 years. Not sure what your metrics are for SERIOUS. But I ran 5-6 miles every day in under 8 min pace. Not going to get into the Olympics but not too shabby for fitness runners. Not once did I take my safety into play to keep my pace. If no one is coming I will slow at a stop sign instead of stop but I have stopped if there are other vehicles in the area.

I know you said SOME serious runners but not the ones I ran with. Only once did I have a close call and that was the CAR running the stop sign while I had none. But even then I half expect it so I was able to halt enough to avoid being hit.

The opinions on this post are very similar to those about bike riding. Those that have done it with one opinion and those that have never done it thinking the bikers are always at fault. If you don't believe me go back and read the numerous threads we've had on runners and bikers. I've seen it for over 6 years on this site.

You can include golf cart drivers in with that jogger/bicycle group, too. It seems like whoever is at the top of the food chain (metaphorically speaking) has little to no tolerance of the lower life forms that occupy space on the roads that some think they own.

As a walker i walk towards traffic--- if there is no car traffic i do not move into the grass-- if there is car traffic and a cart is also coming i stop and move into the grass--smile and wave!

and all the runners out there thank you!!!

I am also a defensive runner especially looking out for those cars coming out of side streets onto a main drag taking a quick right. As I'm running, coming up on their right I try to see the driver's face. Quite often they look left and without looking right just peel out. I've had my hand on the hood of a car doing this more than once only to see the look of horror on their faces knowing they did bad.

Can you tell me what law states that pedestrians have to stop at stop signs and red lights?

Actually when running around the Villages red lights are not even an issue. The only light I can think of around here is on Canal Street and I've only run in that direct a couple of times in six years.

Florida statute 316.130(2).

Common courtesy
 

I am a power walker and walk where there are sidewalks and if there are no sidewalks, I walk in the cart path either on the streets or the designated multi-purpose paths throughout the Villages. Most times I walk against traffic when in the streets and if I see a cart coming, I walk on the grass until the cart passes, then I continue back on the cart path in the street. On the multipurpose paths, I walk with traffic because there are many of the paths where walking against traffic is not safe as there are areas covered with trees, bushes and blind areas to cart drivers where you cannot jump out of the way of the cart coming towards you. I try to be a sensible, courteous walker, but unfortunately a lot of times, I am not extended the same courtesy from golf cart drivers. It's a matter of being a defensive biker, walker, jogger, skater, cart driver and all should be courteous to each other. It's called "share the road".

Amen!:BigApplause:

Thanks Chazz for the statute. I guess that makes sense to be safe and I do for the most part follow this rule. Although I don't actually always stop at the stop signs on the paths so much as slow down, look both ways and continue. Running is diff than being in a car/cart because you have plenty of time as you come to the sign on foot to see the traffic pattern. If there's traffic coming I come to a complete stop and start to walk out to the middle of the path as the car comes to the gate. Usually that's where the signs are. I've also stopped at red lights (be foolish to run thru them with cars crossing in front of me) but will continue as soon as I see an opportunity even it's still red or I'll take a turn, go a few feet, and then cross to continue where I was headed. I'm very cautious and always defer to the cars/carts in these situations. But lights are not a problem here since I seldom come to one on my designated routes.

But usually that's not the issue. The issue is on the straight-a-ways with very rude and obnoxious cart drivers who don't want you sharing the space with them for whatever reason. They can see me coming from afar and are plenty ready for me when they get to me. It's not the norm, thankfully but it happens enough. I have to laugh because I'd estimate at least 75% of them are whizzing by me in a speeding golf cart.

Zonerboy was spot on
 

Dawn Marie:

Of course there is risk in all we do that is why many corporations have risk managers. The purpose to is deal with risk. The above-stated comments by you imply that the only method to treat risk is to retain it. Certainly you would be correct sometimes such as catastrophic events.

However, we are discussing risk that can be treated or dealt with. The fact is we will never see designated lanes for different users, ergo the multi-modal paths. The decision to build them I'm sure was purely economic not only from the standpoint of actually building them but from the basic premise that the Developer did not want to give up any more property than was necessary (i.e he wanted to build more houses) and would not do a tradeoff.

You have referenced at least three times accidents created as a result of speeding golf carts. I agree they are a problem. and like the diamond lane dilemma they can be dealt with in order to reduce risk and increase safety.

The critical point in this thread keeps getting buried. IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER IT IS CAR TO CAR, CART TO CART ,CYCLIST TO CAR/CART. JOGGER TO CART, ET AL WE HAVE SOME HERE IN THE VILLAGES BRAZEN ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THAT ITS THE OTHER GUY THAT IS GOING TO MOVE OUT OF THE WAY. (ZONERBOY) WAS SPOT ON.

It seems logical to me that the diamond lanes were designed for golf carts and not runners.

it also seems that if you are receiving waves from LEO's when you are interfering with golf cart traffic then these guys are not doing their job.

They were, also, designed for bicycles, and so marked.

I agree that there are "SOME" as you said here that think the other guy is going to move but I've already stated when there's an issue I jump up on the sidewalk when the cart approaches. I usually do this when the cart followed by a car is about 50 feet away so they can see me make the effort. I usually get a grateful wave when doing so.

It also seems logical to me tho, that these lanes are PERFECT for us runners to run on. We're not interfering with sidewalk walkers nor car traffic. Yes, an occasional golf cart goes by us but this is where "share the road" should come into play on these VERY few times a runner comes towards a cart. I'd be interested how many runners in one week you actually come into contact with who are running on these diamond lanes. I rarely see one and bet I could count on on hand in six years how many I've seen in my path that I had to go around.

I am a runner who hopefully will be moving to TV soon. I read all of the chatter on runners in TV trying to educate myself before we get there. I enjoyed your post and several of the others. I will try to take all of these, on both sides of the issue, in to considerations when I'm on the roads. By the way, are there any running clubs in TV? Saftey in numberes. Tks

Sailboats do not have the right of way over freighters. Nor do they have the right of way over larger vessels with less maneuverability room, such as in a channel. In general, the vessel with the least maneuverability has the right of way according to the Rules and Regs of the US Coast Guard.

Nor do they have the right of way over commercial fishing vessels. We sailed on Lake MI for 25 years and are quite familiar with the right of way rules. We have had to "dip" many a freighter and get out of the way of ferries in a channel.

Sorry, off topic...

Southoftheborder: Thanks for your explanation of why some folks will run in the diamond lane where there is a side walk. [ Anticipating the question of why am I running in the diamond lane when there are sidewalks? For me it comes down to the surface].

Driving my GC on upper Odell, a petite lady jogger approaching me refused to yield. This set in motion a different set of decisions then I expected. I had to stay in lane because of a vehicle in back of me, and consequently had to slow and squeeze by the lady who now was as far to my right as she could. I believe that my bumper would make a greater impact on her than the concrete sidewalk. This came down to HER decision which I believe was a bad one. She could have benefited from your Dad's advice. He was right-on.

I was taught when approaching someone, to move to your right. If the cart moves to their right and the runner to their right, the problem's solved.

This quoted by zonerboy is exactly the attitude we see, probably 90% of the time when coming up toward a runner in the diamond lanes. They clearly do not view approaching vehicles with the willingness to cooperate and take the precautions dawnmarie has already planned out and has in mind, and explained she uses.

The apparent attitude is that the runner thinks they have no responsibility to take precautions for their own safety.

When we were taught to drive, I can remember public service ads on t.v. and our driver's ed instructor and parents saying "Watch out for the other guy". Parents and instructors elaborated by saying "Never assume the other driver is going to obey the laws or rules of the road......Protect yourself by anticipating that they could/would do something illegal, stupid or dangerous".

To me this concept of "protect yourself" on the part of runners is what's missing here. Many will NOT step onto the grass or sidewalk when a cart approaching cannot swerve out to the left to go around them because of cars/trucks beside them, and they cannot just slam on the brakes and come to a dead halt causing a 10-cart pile-up!

you must be discussing Morse Blvd. north of 466. There are no sidewalks in The Villages. You must realize that runners and walkers have no choice except the roads.

Correction for people who've not been here: There are sidewalks all the way on Canal Street from Lake Sumter Landing southward to the border of 466-A. And there are sidewalks on O'Dell Circle going from Buena Vista gate eastward to Morse nearing Havana Country Club. And there are sidewalks in many other streets.

Cquick was speaking about the area of TV .... NORTH of 466.

Here we go again. As Rodney King once said ". Why can't we just all get along?" Honestly, in
the big scheme of life, is this REALLY a problem? Death, disease, war, petulance, etc, etc...get a grip folks.

South of 466 was built with sidewalks. Diamond lanes were built for golf carts and bikes, not joggers, cars or motorcycles.

Diamond lanes have a solid white lane for a reason. Granted there may be in a golf cart drivers mind a reason to cross that white line. If an accident results the police will investigate and determine fault.

Joggers in the diamond lane create an unnecessary risk and yet because of their status as pedestrians may walk (run) away from their responsibility.
A golf cart driver can either stop and perhaps because it will be an abrupt stop get rear ended or cross the white line into traffic and risk being hit by a car. consider the number of cars that accelerate to get past a golf cart where the diamond lane ends and merge is required.

I am dead set against joggers in diamond lanes but the reality here is that something tragic accident has to occur until the authorities will act..and in that they are remiss

Having the right of way or being in the right can get you killed. An example is pedestrians have the right of way when in a crosswalk, but if a car hits you in the crosswalk your dead. No protection, except you had the right of way. Not much physical protection is it?

so, use the sidewalks where they are available. in other words stay off the roads when there are sidewalks.

I have been running here for six years along with my husband. I have yet to hear of one accident involving a runner and a cart or car. I've heard of car to car accidents, car to cart accidents, cart to cart accidents, even bicycles with cars and carts. And not to mention the solo cart, car or bike accident.

Why does everyone want to pick on the joggers who are usually the most agile and fit people out there?

Is there a statute stating that, or is that your opinion?

In any event, I understand the stress that concrete sidewalks put on one's knees. My runner friends all prefer to run on the asphalt as it is easier on their bodies. if a runner doesn't move over when I come upon them in my cart, I just use my mirrors to check the traffic, and move out into traffic to go around the jogger when it is appropriate. I have never found it to be a big deal. In fact, I can't remember the last time I had to go around a jogger, I encounter them so rarely. It isn't like there are thousands of them clogging up our streets and recreational trails. :shrug:

[QUOTE=mickey100;805316]Is there a statute stating that, or is that your opinion?

Florida 316.130(3) where provided , pedestrians must use sidewalks.

Yes, I was, and I should have said there aren't enough sidewalks.....sorry for the confusion.

[quote=Challenger;805344]and once again, I must point out that in the entire TV north of 466 the total amount of sidewalk is one short section (perhaps 1/4 mile in length) along Mulberry Ln between BVB and Belle Meade Circle.

This thread is yet another in a long history of tempest in a tea pot threads that are so amazingly common on TOTV.

EXACTLY Mickey!! I always try to move over as much as I can even hopping onto the sidewalk if there's a car following close behind a cart. If there's more than two carts in a row I do the same. I hate to jump up and down the sidewalks so I do so only when necessary.

I know this thread is about joggers...that said....I was on the diamond path (next to a sidewalk) when I met a 'walker' coming towards me in the path and not on the sidewalk. I couldn't move because of traffic so slowed down but do you think he got up on the sidewalk? Nope! He preceeded PLUS yelled at me as we passed one another. So we'll see ALL sorts of scenarios won't we??

Yes we do see all sorts. That person certainly doesn't sound very courteous. It think it is up to both sides to be considerate to the other person, as much as possible.

As a "serious runner" I'm afraid I could say the same about many cart drivers who drive as if they are the only one that has the right to be on the road/ path. I can also say the same of many cyclist or car drivers. It's not the method of movement rather the mover that causes the issue. For those of you that don't believe a walker / runner has the right of way hit one and see what happens when you are sued

Another serious runner here, having run all around the Villages area for the past three years. Being a reasonable man, I agree that everyone should be mindful and courteous to others using the streets around here. As stated above, and to those who don't believe it, see what happens when you strike a pedestrian. I was hit about two years ago and like the police sergeant told the motorist, who was adamant that I was at fault, "I'll tell you this just once - bicyclists and pedestrians have the right of way and are not required to carry insurance. Your insurance takes care of this". Now I know what a lot of you are thinking, "bicyclists and pedestrians (don't) always have the right of way" and I won't argue this point with you.
What I do take offense to is the comment about "runners" feeling that they are of the utmost importance out there and everyone should yield to them. I can easily say the same about virtually hundreds (yes hundreds) of golf cart drivers whom apparently feel that the rules of the road do not apply to them. Everyday when I run, I can ALWAYS count numbers and numbers of golf carts rolling right through stop signs without even slowing down. Stop signs are optional for many cart drivers.
The comments regarding having to stop fast if a cart driver comes upon a runner in the cart lane "would cause a rear end pile up" tells me that many of you aren't driving properly. Rear end collisions are ALWAYS a result of following too closely. I could ask the cart drivers - where are YOU going in such a hurry?
I don't believe I have ever run on a cart path along a highway here, where there isn't ample room for a cart to pass an oncoming runner and remain in the golf cart lane, if the cart operator slows to a prudent speed. A human body (especially a runner) is only a couple of feet wide.
Use your heads, use caution, be courteous, slow down, enjoy life, nice matters.
Happy New Year!

Well said. :bowdown:

Hi mickey 100 Yes, however, without even having to look it up can anyone believe that a county would construct a diamond lane for use by pedestrians, crosswalks yes, but diamond lanes .

My point is that too many people including LOE's will automatically defer to the pedestrians having the ROW ALWAYS. Yet in a court of law that is not ALWAYS.

Personal Best Regards

I don't know who that cop was, but he gave wrong information. Cyclists must follow the driving laws and can definitely be at fault. they can hit a pedestrian or car or cause an accident by running a stop sign, etc., and be at fault. If a kid/walker/jogger/oblivious person cuts across the street or darts out into the street and you hit him with your car, you will not be at fault.

Maybe your circumstances were different, but his statement is incorrect. And I'm glad you're okay.

You are, of course, correct. It is always possible that any person, in a vehicle, or on foot, could be at fault. Perhaps the sergeant was referring to his practical experience with the results of such accidents in a court situation. He may be suggesting that the driver will usually lose.