[Bonny]

Originally Posted by newguyintv

Any time I've ever been there, which is as seldom as possible, there are many signs that lots of their clientele are NOT "Residents". I don't know who they are but you need to be blind not to notice they are "non residents".

Not necessarily true. I used to go 3 -4 nights a week and rarely saw a non Villager. When I did, they were with Villager friends.

[Bonny]

Originally Posted by BigbirdPhila

There is one unique place to dine & dance in the Villages and it's being destroyed. People take visiting friends there to show off the community. Some of those visitors buy at the Villages partially because of seeing KB's. It's part of the tour Village real estate agents give to prospective buyers. There are golf courses, rec centers, restaurants, and bars in other retirement communities. But there is only one two-story dance hall, restaurant, and entertainment center that looks like it's something from the set of Gunsmoke. And it's in the Villages.

Management is taking something unique and turning it into a commodity. People can go to multiple places in the Villages for a reasonable quality meal, listen to free music, and dance on a small dance floor. There will be nothing "special" about the new KB's. It will be a commodity. What will be the point of even keeping it "residents only" any more?

Commodities don't increase property values. Unique venues increase the value of a community. It would be far cheaper & less risky to experiment first with opening KB's to the public to increase profitability. And/or charge a cover charge. BB King's in Orlando charges a cover charge just to enter -- whether or not you buy anything to eat. And its decor is mundane compared to KB's.

There is a "goodwill" value to KB's that should be added to its bottom line each year to determine its real value to the corporation & the community. The same technique used by accountants to assess the value of a business beyond its balance sheet. The goal should be to maximize the total value of the Villages corporate & private community, not individual components. Some components will contribute more, some less, to the overall value. Much like "loss leaders" are used in retail stores to draw in the customer who will then spend money on other items, increasing the store's total profit. Will another "commodity" restaurant increase the total value of the community more than a refurbished unique venue?

I say this as someone who meets friends at KB's two or three times a month for dining and dancing. Either lunch or dinner, or both. I drive 110 miles and 2 1/2 hours (round trip) to do it. Because KB's is unique. I won't do that for the "new" KB's. I will be able to have that same experience much closer to home.

We have been here 15 years. I doubt very much if Katie Belles/Cattle Baron is adding any value to the community or our property and we love that place.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

Originally Posted by kstew43

people do meet people at Katie Bells.......Someone in the party has to have the appropriate credentials.

We love it in the summer months when its just too dang hot to dance in the squares. It nice to be in the a/c in July and August, have dinner, drink a little and dance.

As far as recognizing your village, I think with some of the hostility on this site, I would not be in favor of that. Also some TOTV's are non residents, renters, landlords and the such. But security would be number 1.

Thats my opinion anyway, 'Im in favor of a cover charge that can be refunded if you spend that amount on food and drinks....

I agree with you. I have yet to spend under $20 any time I go and would not mind a cover charge as an entrance fee.
They could charge $10 at the door per person and give you a credit at the bar or at the dining room.
There have been many times I seen people come in and dance or set at the bar for several hours and have a water or nurse a drink and not spend very much.

[Bonny]

Originally Posted by otherbruddaDarrell

I agree with you. I have yet to spend under $20 any time I go and would not mind a cover charge as an entrance fee.
They could charge $10 at the door per person and give you a credit at the bar or at the dining room.
There have been many times I seen people come in and dance or set at the bar for several hours and have a water or nurse a drink and not spend very much.

Sounds good, but I remember years ago when they first tried a $2.00 cover charge. You would have thought the world was coming to an end !!! No one wanted to pay $2.00. Great entertainment,but no one wanted to pay a penny for it. It did eventually evolve into a $5.00 charge, however if you spent $5.00 it went towards the bill. Even that was deemed as the Villages being greedy. Believe me when I say they tried everything imaginable to make it profitable.
People now say they should have raised the prices. That was tried and the Villages was accused of trying to rip everyone off because they raised some of the prices $1.00.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

Originally Posted by Bonny

Sounds good, but I remember years ago when they first tried a $2.00 cover charge. You would have thought the world was coming to an end !!! No one wanted to pay $2.00. Great entertainment,but no one wanted to pay a penny for it. It did eventually evolve into a $5.00 charge, however if you spent $5.00 it went towards the bill. Even that was deemed as the Villages being greedy. Believe me when I say they tried everything imaginable to make it profitable.
People now say they should have raised the prices. That was tried and the Villages was accused of trying to rip everyone off because they raised some of the prices $1.00.

I remember that also Bonny. People think that it is one of the free entertainment perks for living in the villages. It is free as long as they return any cover charge in the form of food or drinks. I think the ones who complain the most are those that take up seats and not spend much.
I used to be the Post Commander of a V.F.W. and when we changed the price of a mug of beer from .75 cents to $1 you would have thought the canteen patrons were being murdered!
We also owned a 50 seat café and was open for breakfast lunch and dinner. When people came in and sat for over an hour having coffee and taking up space.....................well you get the picture.
I like Katie Belles as it is but look forward to a change as well.

[Challenger]

Originally Posted by otherbruddaDarrell

I remember that also Bonny. People think that it is one of the free entertainment perks for living in the villages. It is free as long as they return any cover charge in the form of food or drinks. I think the ones who complain the most are those that take up seats and not spend much.
I used to be the Post Commander of a V.F.W. and when we changed the price of a mug of beer from .75 cents to $1 you would have thought the canteen patrons were being murdered!
We also owned a 50 seat café and was open for breakfast lunch and dinner. When people came in and sat for over an hour having coffee and taking up space.....................well you get the picture.
I like Katie Belles as it is but look forward to a change as well.

There is a point at which raising the price of a product by X results in reduced overall revenue(assuming all other factors remain the same) Kind of a retail Law of Diminishing Returns.
It seems to me that that point is very small in the Villages

I doubt that TOTV would survive if the charge went from $0 to $1 per month.

Katie Belles is dead---- Long Live Katie Belles!!

[tuccillo]

They do have a cover charge of sorts: a $3/person reservation charge to get a guaranteed table. We have gladly paid that for popular events.

Originally Posted by Bonny

Sounds good, but I remember years ago when they first tried a $2.00 cover charge. You would have thought the world was coming to an end !!! No one wanted to pay $2.00. Great entertainment,but no one wanted to pay a penny for it. It did eventually evolve into a $5.00 charge, however if you spent $5.00 it went towards the bill. Even that was deemed as the Villages being greedy. Believe me when I say they tried everything imaginable to make it profitable.
People now say they should have raised the prices. That was tried and the Villages was accused of trying to rip everyone off because they raised some of the prices $1.00.

[BigbirdPhila]

Originally Posted by Bonny

We have been here 15 years. I doubt very much if Katie Belles/Cattle Baron is adding any value to the community or our property and we love that place.

There is a reason the sales reps make a point to show KB's to prospective buyers. Their research must have shown that doing so helps improve the demand for the Villages' product -- housing.

[kcrazorbackfan]

Originally Posted by Warren Kiefer

Only someone who is not aware of the vision of Harold Schwartz would use such words. Harold was not a money hungry person, he considered Villagers to be his family and in that vain he wanted all of us to share in the wealth. let me write out the numbers that were listed as the personal wealth of Gary Morse. 1.2,000,000,000. Same thing as 12 thousand millionaires. This is not what m
Mr. Swartz invisioned.

Ok.... here we go again - Gary Morse is successful to the tune of about $1.2 billion and people are jealous. If I had his money, I would do whatever it takes to keep this place as beautiful as it is and not lose money, i.e. Katie Belle's, to keep it that way. There are people in TV that have a lot more acquired wealth and money than I do and I'm not jealous; I admire them for having done it. Get over the fact he was brilliant enough to make/inherit his wealth and knows how to keep it. Katie Belle's, as you know it, is as dead as most people's dreams of becoming millionaires or even breaking 100 for 18 holes.

[Bonny]

Originally Posted by BigbirdPhila

There is a reason the sales reps make a point to show KB's to prospective buyers. Their research must have shown that doing so helps improve the demand for the Villages' product -- housing.

Absolutely. We love Katie Belles. We thought it was so unique & cool but it wasn't a big reason for buying here. At the time it was even cooler because that was the only square.

[Bonny]

Originally Posted by tuccillo

They do have a cover charge of sorts: a $3/person reservation charge to get a guaranteed table. We have gladly paid that for popular events.

They also have to pay the entertainers.

[dillywho]

Originally Posted by kstew43

It's all about the money to be made......

Frankly, I do not know of anyone that is not in business to make money. That's why it is called "business".

[blue72]

Originally Posted by DougB

I won't have to worry about parking at the square. I bought a parking spot from a guy on Craig's List right in front of Dunkin' Donuts!

MY HERO!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you get a two fer on the spot?

[dillywho]

Originally Posted by DougB

Past performance was the vision of Gary Morse. Jury is still out on Mark and the others.

I can remember when Gary Morse was the "bad guy" because he didn't do things like Harold Swartz. Now that he is gone, give them a break, please. None of them built this place so that everyone could have everything for free or cater to all the various whims of those coming here or those who have been here for many, many years. This is exactly what makes our The Villages so unique. To quote one of the engineers at the plant from which we retired, "This is not Burger King, and 'No', you cannot have it your way."

[sunnyatlast]

Originally Posted by Bonny

Sounds good, but I remember years ago when they first tried a $2.00 cover charge. You would have thought the world was coming to an end !!! No one wanted to pay $2.00. Great entertainment,but no one wanted to pay a penny for it. It did eventually evolve into a $5.00 charge, however if you spent $5.00 it went towards the bill. Even that was deemed as the Villages being greedy. Believe me when I say they tried everything imaginable to make it profitable.
People now say they should have raised the prices. That was tried and the Villages was accused of trying to rip everyone off because they raised some of the prices $1.00.

Further proof that there are large numbers of people here who have never worked in a private-sector enterprise in which everyone has to focus on generating enough revenue to pay the bills of running the place, to at least break even.

I think a lot of people are absolutely clueless about the costs of running a place like Katie Belle's, and then they whine about low wages for workers. I swear some have no concept of an Income-Expense Worksheet!

Without a cover charge and with low spending, obviously TV has been subsidizing the operation to keep it afloat. At best, the revamp will bring it to break-even.

Some who complain and vilify business owners ought to put their money where their mouth is and start a business and try bringing in enough to pay its bills. But that would be too much work and personal sacrifice for those who want only an 8-5, Monday thru Friday, 40-hour work week, employer-paid cadillac health insurance premiums, and fully vested pension at age 55.