Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2277741)

Did you see the FSBO currently being advertised on TOTV? Price "reduced" to $349K. But, Zillow says it's only worth $321K, and it sold 2.5 years ago for $222K. The house is 24 years old.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2278019)

Thank you. I love being right.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2278019)

Now please go over to the thread on CDD Bonds. You're a former finance guy. Please explain to the masses, that CDD Bonds are nothing more than mortgages, with a different name and they only relate to land and not homes.

(Once you explain that, then you can move on to how Bond prices fall, when Interest rates rise.):a20:

Originally Posted by Topspinmo (Post 2278168)

So you like paying interest. Most of us don’t.

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy;

This explanation is the way I, as a finance guy and fill out three or four tax returns each year, think about the role and relationship of the TV bond. It may not work for other people. . . or anyone else.

good luck.

Originally Posted by biker1 (Post 2278162)

It is pretty hard to specifically not pay the bond. If you have a mortgage, your mortgage payment includes funds to escrow for county and school property taxes, bond payment, CDD maintenance fee, and the fire fee. These are all items on your November tax bill that your mortgage company pays for you from escrow. Are you planning on reducing your mortgage payment by the amount of the bond payment and then tell your mortgage company to reduce your November tax bill payment by that amount? If you don't have a mortgage, you receive the November tax bill and are responsible for paying it yourself. Are you going to reduce how much you pay by the bond payment? Essentially, if you don't make your full mortgage payment then you will be hearing from your mortgage company. If you don't make the full November tax bill then you will be hearing from the County. Eventually, you won't be living in the house.

Originally Posted by Altavia (Post 2278191)

Do you like earning interest?

If you had a 3% mortgage today, would you pay it off?

Unless you kept that bond money under a mattress, you'd earn more interest investing it.

Originally Posted by Laker14 (Post 2278149)

I'm not sure I buy the argument that if you buy a house that is old enough to have the bond paid off you are going to pay more for maintenance. It is quite possible that the house with the bond paid off has already gone through the stage of life when the HVAC, roof, and water heater, as well as the kitchen appliances, have been replaced.

Perhaps, more than once.

Also, it is not unusual for the home to have been modernized decoratively. More than once.

Originally Posted by Bill14564 (Post 2278201)

As I asked another poster, what would your calculation have been over the past five years when CD rates were below 3% or in the past few years when market returns were at or below zero? Today, investing the money rather than paying off the bond makes sense. Yesterday not so much and tomorrow is anybody's guess.

Also, don't forget to include the admin fee in the calculation of effective interest rate.

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy (Post 2278183)

We all know that, its obvious. . .



CDD bonds are not quite mortgages, but from a payer's point of view, the bond looks like or behaves like a mortgage with amortization identical to a mortgage, the payment concept is the same as a mortgage, and a lien against the property with the ability to foreclose against the property, like a mortgage.

A mortgage is a legal agreement by which a bank or other creditor lends money at interest in exchange for taking title of the debtor's property. The bond holders do not hold title to the property, and do not lend you the money.

Its really a property improvement assessment fee, funded by a bond, creating a lien on the land. Same as an HOA special assessment fee for an HOA project to improve the entire HOA community after borrowing money. The HOA special assessment in an HOA would be passed to the next owner, but its generally not part of the HOA fee, which is a permanent lease payment on the land.

Special Assessment Tax: A Definition | Rocket Mortgage

In my intuition, TV bonds are not tax deductible because the bond was created by a private entity and not a governmental entity. Would that amount based on the technicality be flagged by the IRS? very, very doubtful in my opinion. Besides, the IRS tends to go after not reporting all your income properly, and less about the expenses, especially with the current personal exemption.

From a finance operational point of view, the bond holders, who lent the money to the villages, expect an interest payment at regular intervals. When a home owner pays off the bond prematurely, the monies go into a fund to keep the principal and generate interest to replace the expected annual payment and fund the future interest rate payments and the bond repayment at the end of the life of the bond. When current interest rates are way below the bond interest rate, the prepayment can cause future payment shortfalls, whereas when current interest rates are above the bond rate, the prepayment holding fund can generate excess interest. . .

This explanation is the way I, as a finance guy and fill out three or four tax returns each year, think about the role and relationship of the TV bond. It may not work for other people. . . or anyone else.

good luck.

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2278216)

You may find some pre-owned houses like that, but my experience has been the opposite. Most older pre-owned houses I have viewed have not been well maintained or updated.

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy (Post 2278183)

We all know that, its obvious. . .



CDD bonds are not quite mortgages, but from a payer's point of view, the bond looks like or behaves like a mortgage with amortization identical to a mortgage, the payment concept is the same as a mortgage, and a lien against the property with the ability to foreclose against the property, like a mortgage.

A mortgage is a legal agreement by which a bank or other creditor lends money at interest in exchange for taking title of the debtor's property. The bond holders do not hold title to the property, and do not lend you the money.


good luck.

Originally Posted by Altavia (Post 2278191)

Do you like earning interest?

If you had a 3% mortgage today, would you pay it off?

Unless you kept that bond money under a mattress, you'd earn more interest investing it.

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2278216)

You may find some pre-owned houses like that, but my experience has been the opposite. Most older pre-owned houses I have viewed have not been well maintained or updated.

Originally Posted by Normal (Post 2278246)

It’s all on the builder. Bonds are high because the builder freeloads off the county. If The Developer paid impact fees in line with the rest of the state, this discussion would be moot. Average impact fees in the state of Florida for 2023 were about 27,000, but not for our Developer.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2278288)

Without CDD Bonds, The Villages would not exist ... nor would Lakewood Ranch.

CDD's were created by the Florida Legislature, to promote the development of land that was unlikely to be developed without incentives (the use has expanded in the last 15-20 years). It's a lot like electric cars. No one wants to buy them without government incentives and no one would have ever moved to The Villages, unless the government provided a way to subsidize the development and construction.

It's also a way for homes to appear to be priced for less than they really are ... you're not paying all the land cost up front.

Impact Fees and CDD Bonds, are apples & oranges. The average per home cost of Impact Fees in Florida, is slightly under $10,000/unit.

Originally Posted by kansasr (Post 2278295)

And for the Developer in Sumter County it's only $972 in The Villages.

Road Impact Fee Schedules | Sumter County, FL - Official Website

Originally Posted by Normal (Post 2278302)

Originally Posted by GoRedSox! (Post 2278320)

This is one of the most successful and visionary developers in the history of development. They created everything and it's quite something what it has become and what it's going to continue to be. I know the developer takes criticism on this site from time to time, but quite honestly, they have created a beautiful retirement community here and the people are happier generally than any place I've been.

Originally Posted by GoRedSox! (Post 2278320)

This is one of the most successful and visionary developers in the history of development. They created everything and it's quite something what it has become and what it's going to continue to be. I know the developer takes criticism on this site from time to time, but quite honestly, they have created a beautiful retirement community here and the people are happier generally than any place I've been.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2278230)

In the case of a Bond, the Lender did indeed lend money to the property owner. At the time, that owner was the Developer. The Developer then arranged for that loan to be assumed proportionally by the next owner (first home buyer), who could then pass it on to subsequent buyers.

I don't often agree with CoachKandSportsguy, but he's got a way better grasp on this situation, than most everyone else.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2278288)

Impact Fees and CDD Bonds, are apples & oranges. The average per home cost of Impact Fees in Florida, is slightly under $10,000/unit.

Originally Posted by Normal (Post 2278246)

It’s all on the builder. Bonds are high because the builder freeloads off the county. If The Developer paid impact fees in line with the rest of the state, this discussion would be moot. Average impact fees in the state of Florida for 2023 were about 27,000, but not for our Developer.

Originally Posted by Altavia (Post 2278408)

Maybe I'm missing something but it looks like other than regional roads, most of the things on the impact fee schedule are initially paid for by the developer and bonds? Including the schools.

Originally Posted by CoupleNCA (Post 2277349)

We visited the Brownwood TS to introduce ourselves and interest. But the realtor we were assigned on our first in-person visit has refused to answer one of our most basic of questions multiple times (she seems to keep copy/pasting the same answer to my very direct question).

My simple question is this: We've seen several really nice properties that promote the fact that they're "NO BOND". As if it was some huge savings or advantage. I just want to know: "What is the average real-world saving on a property with a bond vs. no-bond?"

The sales brochures shows the monthly fees as "bond+maintenance+fire" so you can't gauge what percentage each makes up.

I totally understand the concept of the bond and I totally understand why each "Villages" bond may differ in terms of price. But we're merely trying to ascertain if a property being highly-promoted as "NO BOND" is really that significant and should be given priority in our choices.

Can anybody please answer this question honestly? My assigned realtor can't or won't.

Originally Posted by Robnlaura (Post 2278765)

its really a hoa fee in disguise.. o plus you expected to pay a fee to use the facilities you actually, paid to build.. So bond cost plus $189.. + $165 you get nothing for free is the real answer..

Originally Posted by Papa_lecki (Post 2278794)

Are you saying the bond is an HOA fee in disguise?

I don’t think anything could be further from the truth.
Stop trying to say there’s an HOA fee in the Villages - there’s not

Originally Posted by Robnlaura (Post 2278765)

its really a hoa fee in disguise.. o plus you expected to pay a fee to use the facilities you actually, paid to build.. So bond cost plus $189.. + $165 you get nothing for free is the real answer..

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2277367)

Note that you don't have to work with an "assigned" agent. You can fire the agent and select whatever agent you want to work with. Do a little research and find an experienced agent who you like and ask them to show you some houses.

Chris Hallmark is one of the most experienced and best agents who works for The Villages. If you call him, I am sure that he will show you any of The Villages houses and answer any questions you have.

Originally Posted by Twindham (Post 2279047)

Just a small caution about firing the first assigned agent. We fired our first Villages agent and found another Villages agent. When he found the house we liked and purchased, the commission was split between the two Villages agents. So, it's possible the first agent could still get some commission even though they didn't close the deal.

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2279048)

Who cares? As a buyer, you don't pay any commission. "The Properties of the Villages" is the broker, and they can pay their agents whatever they want.

Originally Posted by DrMack (Post 2279056)

Doesn’t the buyer always pay the cost of the real estate sale. The price is jacked to cover the costs. If a seller wants 500k, they ask 525 k to pay the realtor. Who paid the 525k? Where do you think that extra 5% goes?

On the flip side. We have a bond we intend to pay off once all the paperwork is done. The bond insures the latest in building techniques, amenities, updates and new everything.

Originally Posted by CoupleNCA (Post 2277349)

We visited the Brownwood TS to introduce ourselves and interest. But the realtor we were assigned on our first in-person visit has refused to answer one of our most basic of questions multiple times (she seems to keep copy/pasting the same answer to my very direct question).

My simple question is this: We've seen several really nice properties that promote the fact that they're "NO BOND". As if it was some huge savings or advantage. I just want to know: "What is the average real-world saving on a property with a bond vs. no-bond?"

The sales brochures shows the monthly fees as "bond+maintenance+fire" so you can't gauge what percentage each makes up.

I totally understand the concept of the bond and I totally understand why each "Villages" bond may differ in terms of price. But we're merely trying to ascertain if a property being highly-promoted as "NO BOND" is really that significant and should be given priority in our choices.

Can anybody please answer this question honestly? My assigned realtor can't or won't.

Originally Posted by CoupleNCA (Post 2277349)

"What is the average real-world saving on a property with a bond vs. no-bond?"

Originally Posted by VApeople (Post 2279559)

OK, I will answer your question.

There is no "average real-world saving on a property with a bond vs. no-bond".

Originally Posted by VApeople (Post 2279559)

OK, I will answer your question.

There is no "average real-world saving on a property with a bond vs. no-bond".

The savings depends on the amount of the bond and the interest rate for the bond. You can figure it out for yourself.

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2279566)

The best analogy I can think of, is owning a home on land encumbered with a CDD Bond, is similar to "owning" a home in trailer park, where you pay a monthly or annual fee for the land on which the trailer is situated.

Common sense would say that's "real world savings" to most folks.

Unfortunately, when dealing with many buyers/sellers in TV (or other CDD communities), common sense is in short supply.