Good luck OCsun while you navigate the roundabouts -- and good luck on your new home purchase :) On my visits to TV I watch myself in the roundabouts very carefully. I will be back in TV on Oct. 7, so fair warning to all.

I love single lane roundabouts and hate double lane roundabouts. Double lane roundabouts only work if you only use the outer lane if you are getting on and immediately getting off at next exit. Any time someone crosses a exit in the outer lane they are putting those in the center at risk. JMHO

Suzanne

Exactly my point.

For the first three months I lived in TV, (high season), I wouldn't go near a roundabout. Mostly because I'd read scary threads on this site! A lot of posters here still have conflicting ideas on what is correct. Now I use Pturner logic, assume the other drivers won't follow the rules and you'll be fine.

Why not, it's a noble dream.

And my solution is unlikely to become reality either. Defensive driving is the only alternative at this point.

I try to approach the rotary with staggering in mind. I try to avoid having another vehicle on neither side of mine.

There were a few questions about my posting from the other day which I will try to address.

By "inside" and "outside" lanes, I meant the "left" and "right" lanes respectively, making reference to the circle and which lane was closer to the center of the circle.

I do have the brochure and have read it and I thought I understood it. But my concern persists for the case in which, even with everyone following the rules, there is still considerable risk of a collision. Please do correct me If I've not realized something that would make this not so.

I'll try to clarify the case I'm concerned about. I'm entering a two lane roundabout in the right/outer lane with the intention of going to the 2nd/180 degree exit (I don't have my brochure at hand, but I'm pretty sure that's permitted). Another vehicle has already entered the inner/left lane one entrance before me with the intention of taking his second/180 degree exit - one exit before mine. He and I are now next to each other. I intend to continue past his exit (that's why there are dotted lane lines across my path at his exit and that's why there are straight arrows just past his exit in my lane...). I probably can't see his turn signal (which, of course, as required by law, he is using to indicate his intentions to exit the roundabout) and he can't see that I'm not signalling for an exit. He may presume, because he read the brochure and it says he can do this, that he can exit at will because the brochure showed both lanes exiting together when you both go "straight through". Except he didn't realize that I'm not taking the same "straight through" path he's expecting. My second exit is the next one. So either he turns into me when he crosses into my lane or I hit him when he gets a little ahead of me and crosses my lane - even though we both followed "the rules". My point is that whenever you're in a roundabout, you probably don't know the other driver's situation and you have to presume the worst, even if it means yielding in a situation where you thought you had the right of way.

Too frequently, I see vehicles in the inside/left lane in the roundabout take an exit without looking to see what the vehicle near them in the outer/right lane is going to do. It's very scary.

I know... I know... I'll go away now.

You see, even though you read the rule book and thought you understood it, you missed a very important point (and I did too when I first read the rules). You are not to enter the roundabout until both lanes are free of traffic.

It’s understandable why most drivers miss this point because it’s counterintuitive to what they’ve become accustomed to. When you are on an entry ramp to a two lane road with a yield sign, most drivers will enter as long as the right hand lane is free, not both lanes. But the roundabouts rules change that. Both lanes must be free.

Just think of a roundabout as two four lane roads joining at a traffic light. If you wanted to turn right at that light you would always be in the right lane. If you wanted to turn left, you would always be in the left lane. If you wanted to go straight through, you could be in either lane.

And you would always yield to someone already in the intersection regardless of the light.

If you always remember the person already in the circle has the ROW and don't enter until both lanes are free and follow as if a four way traffic light, roundabouts work great at moving traffic much better then traffic lights.

OK, that makes sense. It's perhaps a question of how many of us actually do that... Not that I wasn't cautious about entering anyway, but now that I know that, I'll wait even longer. Thanks for the tip.

Gil, you point out another risk with the circles. When I am in the left/inside lane approaching where I have to exit I too am concerned about the car who wants to enter the roundabout at the entrance just before my exit not yielding to me since he sees that the outer lane is free. What I find myself having to do (in addition to using my turn signal in hopes that the entering car will see it), despite it being technically against the guidelines, is slightly drift into the right/outer lane before my exit. Hopefully, if the entering car sees this move they will not try to enter.

Unlike speeding, for which there is a clear motive from the perspective of the violator, improper use of the roundabouts has no motive. A person using the wrong lane does not gain anything. Hence it hardly seems like a "dream" to try something which has never before been done - enforcement - to attempt to educate the public about proper roundabout usage. Besides, even enforcement of speeding laws does at least curtail the problem ... just as would enforcement of roundabout rules.

This is why two lane roundabouts only work when the people entering and staying in the right most lane immediately exit at the next exit. If they can go to the second exit then there is always a potential problem with people in the left most lane trying to get out of the roundabout.
Suzanne

Why would there be an issue with that? The outside lane goes straight (has to, but make sure they are!) and the inside lane goes straight or keeps going around.

Just follow the arrows...it's as simple as that!

Actually, follow the arrows that are painted at your entrance to the roundabout. They show the right lane going either right or straight and the left lane going straight or left (third exit). Once in the roundabout, the arrows can cause confusion.

The points made above about people not waiting until BOTH lanes are clear before entering the roundabout are the crux of the problem. If drivers followed this and used the proper lanes, the other problems would occur less. You wouldn't have to worry about the person on your right blocking your exit because there wouldn't be anyone on your right. You wouldn't have to worry about the driver in the inner/left lane cutting off your path to go straight because they wouldn't be there.

THAT is my philosophy!

If I see someone in the inner lane on a roundabout I will not enter the outer lane until he has gone past my entrance. I am unable to tell whether he will be exiting the next exit unless he uses a turn signal to show that. Best to wait.

John

I agree!

The last time I got a speeding ticket (over 30 years ago) it was because I didn’t notice that the speed limit had dropped from 50 to 35. And how many of you out there have glanced down at your speedometer only to find that you and all the other cars around you are speeding. You didn’t get a ticket, but you should have even though you had no motivation to do so.

And as for motives in the roundabouts, park by a roundabout exit some day and count the number of vehicles that exit without signaling. You’ll be amazed. You think that’s because they don’t know that they’re supposed to signal when turning?

This morning about 8:00 we were driving down Buena Vista and there had been an accident at the traffic circle that connects Glenview Country Club and runs alongside the Savannah Center. A SUV had crashed into the entrance posts at the front of the Glenview CC where everyone walks their dogs and feeds the ducks. It was a direct crash into the pillar there. A police car was there but all occupants were gone from the car and the doors were open.

Does anyone know if those people are gonna be o.k.? Their car doesn't look o.k.

Sweetie speculated it was either a health related issue or someone was trying to avoid hitting someone in the traffic circle.

If the lack of turn signals were the crux of the problem I would agree with you. However, while turn signals may help in some circumstances, the reality is that the problems occur because people who are essentially parallel with each other cross into each other's lane. This is caused by improper lane usage with each person thinking they are in the right. Because of the proximity of the cars to each other, turn signals are at best of secondary value since you can't see the other's signal when they are right next to you.

I'll agree that the roundabouts could be much better designed, but to change them at this point would be prohibitively expensive. Since we clearly have more police resources than we need (witness the silly crackdown on golf carts), these resources could be used to ticket/warn drivers using the roundabouts in the wrong manner. Every person who recognizes that what they thought was the right procedure is actually wrong becomes one less accident waiting to happen.

I’ll be sure to pass on your sentiments to the widow of the cart driver that was T-Boned at the El Camino Real/Morse Blvd roundabout by a car that failed to indicate its intention to exit the roundabout.

I knew you’d see the light eventually. But I’ll tell you what. In the spirit of compromise, you get the cops to ticket lane violators, I’ll get them to ticket the thousands of signal violators and then we’ll use the fines to fund the roundabout re-do. OK?

I'd need to know the specifics of the crash to know whether failure to signal was the root cause, but I tend to doubt it. If the drivers were following the prescribed lane and yielding guidelines, a turn signal is not really required to provide safety. A turn signal is only useful to indicate your intent to exit to someone who has not followed the guidelines ... and even then is only useful if the trailing car is far enough back to see the signal.

Nice of you to say that but you know that's what you HAVE to do, right? You cannot enter either lane until they have gone past your entrance. Both lanes need to be clear to enter the roundabout. That is the very first rule listed on the brochure.

You’re not getting it. The cart wasn’t in the roundabout, it was on the cart path that is parallel to the roundabout. When it started to cross El Camino it was T-Boned by the car that exited without signaling.

Oh, I didn't realize that you had changed the topic from general roundabout safety to a very specific case that pertains to only one roundabout that I am aware of. In this specific case, I would agree with you that the design is awful and that no amount of policing would make it truly safe.

Now, back to the general topic of roundabout safety.

Enough already!

I think the both of you, njblue and ed, should get a copy of the brochure and go down to Cody's outside bar and discuss this topic over a pither of beer.:spoken:

This roundabout "discussion" is making me dizzy.:confused:
Bottom line...always think that the other drivers don't know what their doing.
CYA

I think we should debate what a pither of beer is.

let's have another "pither"

OK so I fayled spellin, kudnt ewe give me a brak?

I think your spelling was quite correct..at least phonetically...that is how it is pronounced after the 1st pither of beer

:a20::a20: Drink your pither of beer. :beer3: I will have a carraffee of wine. :wine: