Originally Posted by biker1 (Post 1172426)

Figure it out yourself, unless you are challenged.

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 1172212)

This isn't the first thread along these lines, so at risk of incurring the ire of cyclists, let's bring some clarity to this thread:

First of all, bicycles are vehicles and have the right to use the roads, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW. I'm all in favor of safety, cyclists are much more at risk for injury than a car. However, in the spirit of sharing the road, there are RESPONSIBILITIES that go along with cyclists RIGHTS.

The link provided is to a cyclist association page, the "information" is NOT THE LAW, it is the author's OPINION and INTERPETATION of the law. So lets look at the actual Florida law:

316.2065 Bicycle regulations.—

(5)(a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride in the lane marked for bicycle use or, if no lane is marked for bicycle use, as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:
1. When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

2. When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

3. When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition or potential conflict, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, turn lane, or substandard-width lane, which makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge or within a bicycle lane. For the purposes of this subsection, a “substandard-width lane” is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and another vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

The law is vague, it does not give a specific lane width or separation of motor vehicle and cycle. This is likely because the distance is relative to speed. The author in the link has interpreted subsection 3 to mean bicycles can ride in the middle of the road at any speed any time they want and "own the lane". This is NOT what the law states. The bicycle association itself advocates a minimum distance of 3 feet. The lanes on BV and Morse, at least south of 466A are 12-14 feet. My full size SUV is 6 feet wide, so hugging the center line, it allows 6-8 feet for the cyclist. Therefore, UNDER THE LAW, the cyclist has NO RIGHT to ride in the middle of the road at less than the speed of traffic, except as noted in subsection 1&2. It does not matter what the bicycle association has to say, only what THE LAW states. If you are riding in the middle at 35 mph, go for it. There is no reason for anyone to pass you. But if you are riding at 15 mph, you are IN VIOLATION of the law and can be cited.

Also:

(6) Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway may not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles. Persons riding two abreast may not impede traffic when traveling at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing and shall ride within a single lane.

How many times do we come up on 3-4-5 cycles abreast in the middle of the lane so they can chit-chat?? They are also VIOLATING THE LAW. I also agree with Rubi---there are some (not all) cyclists who are loathe to stop at stop signs or lights because of the inconvenience of toe clips. Here's news--it is also "inconvenient" to stop a car as well, but it is THE LAW.

All that being said, motorists need to realize they are much safer than cyclists and act accordingly. But that does not excuse cyclists from taking over a lane when the LAW clearly forbids it.

Now I'll retreat to the bomb shelter.

Originally Posted by outlaw (Post 1172586)

Read it again. Per your own link, what I highlighted in BOLD is not.

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 1172591)

above is my post, copied onto this one, and below is the copy from the link. Please see your ophthalmologist first thing Monday morning

(5)(a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride in the lane marked for bicycle use or, if no lane is marked for bicycle use, as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:
1. When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

2. When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

3. When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition or potential conflict, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, turn lane, or substandard-width lane, which makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge or within a bicycle lane. For the purposes of this subsection, a “substandard-width lane” is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and another vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

Originally Posted by tomwed (Post 1172328)

well done

12 ft makes a road

Would you agree that the width of a car or minivan with mirrors is 90 inches

Would you agree that the law indicates you need to give a bike 3 ft to pass?

36+90=126 10 1/2 ft

You bike. How far is your front wheel to the curb? 1 1/2 ft?

Oh sh.., That's 12 ft. [i'll go away now,,,]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 1172416)

Just measured Morse opposite Sarasota range---each lane, white line to center line is 12 feet. But this is absolutely the bare minimum width, IMHO, for safety. And that assumes a "good" driver and a "good" cyclist, which may be far and few between here. So, with all the FACTS in, even though the lanes are not "substandard", I think cyclists who are going to ride 25+ mph should exercise their right to "own the lane" as it is called. Might not need to do this if you see a mini-cooper coming up on you, but anything larger would put their safety at risk. If you are going to ride 15 mph, do the motorists, and your serious cycling cohorts a favor and stay on the MMPs. So in summary, my opinion would be that 14 feet and wider lanes, wherever that may be, follow the law and stay right. 12 feet and under, obey the law and "own the lane". Perhaps the Florida legislature could clear up section 5 posted above. Mia culpa to my cycling friends, they were right all along, even if it might have been for the wrong reason. Happy Trails!!!

Originally Posted by outlaw (Post 1172601)

OK Doc. Here is what I posted in response to Tom's post, and what was in bold type that I was contesting as being in the statute: (5)(a) 3. For the purposes of this subsection, a “substandard-width lane” is a lane too narrow for a bicycle and another vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

The unsafe condition of substandard-width lanes is that drivers may unlawfully and dangerously attempt to pass within the lane or use the adjacent lane when there is conflicting traffic. Although that practice subjects the overtaking motorist and the on-coming motorist to some danger, the bicyclist is the one most likely to suffer harm in those circumstances.

The provision in the Bicycle Regulations allows bicyclists to protect their space for their own safety.

The way they do that is to control the lane. They are not required to keep right. It is legal and it is the safest cycling practice under many circumstances.

Now, if you can show me where that is in the statute, then I will go see my ophthalmologist. If not, please see your psychiatrist.

Originally Posted by alzjr (Post 1172738)

Almost all bicyclists also drive cars. We don't instantaneously become idiots just because we are on a bicycle.

Most car drivers do not ride bicycles on our streets in The Villages so they cannot have any idea what is safe for a cyclist.

How many times have you been out in your car and not seen a bicycle? Bicycles are not that big a problem.

Driving a bicycle in the middle of a lane is safer because I know from driving a car I do not run into the back of slower vehicles in front of me. If I did run into a slower vehicle in front of me it would really delay getting to my destination. (wait for the sheriff and he would have to call the FHP because it is a personal injury accident, and then the time in court for a ticket for hitting a vehicle from behind, and then the increase in insurance for an at fault accident)

It is much easier and little effort (power steering) to signal and move over to the other lane.

Besides, regardless of our interpretation of the law the Sumter County Sheriff's deputies' have agreed that on our four lane roads a bicyclist can use the whole lane, and they are the ones that write the tickets.

Originally Posted by Marathon Man (Post 1172792)

Friends, please.

Those people on the bicycles are our neighbors. They just want to be safe. I am troubled by what I read here. Riding a bike is a healthy, enjoyable activity that they do. They do it on the roads because that is where it is done. The law, and common sense, provides for the proper sharing of the road with them. They are not an inconvenience. They are people who are simply using a different, legal mode of transportation.

Unless one of them runs into the side of my car (or comes close to doing so), I am not really affected by whether or not they fully stop at signs. So, I am just not going to care about it. I am going to continue on my way and enjoy my day. BTW, I have a lot more near misses with golf carts and autos than I do with bicycles.

Thank you. Please have a safe, and enjoyable day.

Originally Posted by alzjr (Post 1172738)

Almost all bicyclists also drive cars. We don't instantaneously become idiots just because we are on a bicycle.

Most car drivers do not ride bicycles on our streets in The Villages so they cannot have any idea what is safe for a cyclist.

How many times have you been out in your car and not seen a bicycle? Bicycles are not that big a problem.

Driving a bicycle in the middle of a lane is safer because I know from driving a car I do not run into the back of slower vehicles in front of me. If I did run into a slower vehicle in front of me it would really delay getting to my destination. (wait for the sheriff and he would have to call the FHP because it is a personal injury accident, and then the time in court for a ticket for hitting a vehicle from behind, and then the increase in insurance for an at fault accident)

It is much easier and little effort (power steering) to signal and move over to the other lane.

Besides, regardless of our interpretation of the law the Sumter County Sheriff's deputies' have agreed that on our four lane roads a bicyclist can use the whole lane, and they are the ones that write the tickets.

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 1172416)

Just measured Morse opposite Sarasota range---each lane, white line to center line is 12 feet. But this is absolutely the bare minimum width, IMHO, for safety. And that assumes a "good" driver and a "good" cyclist, which may be far and few between here. So, with all the FACTS in, even though the lanes are not "substandard", I think cyclists who are going to ride 25+ mph should exercise their right to "own the lane" as it is called. Might not need to do this if you see a mini-cooper coming up on you, but anything larger would put their safety at risk. If you are going to ride 15 mph, do the motorists, and your serious cycling cohorts a favor and stay on the MMPs. So in summary, my opinion would be that 14 feet and wider lanes, wherever that may be, follow the law and stay right. 12 feet and under, obey the law and "own the lane". Perhaps the Florida legislature could clear up section 5 posted above. Mia culpa to my cycling friends, they were right all along, even if it might have been for the wrong reason. Happy Trails!!!

Originally Posted by Marathon Man (Post 1172792)

Friends, please.

Those people on the bicycles are our neighbors. They just want to be safe. I am troubled by what I read here. Riding a bike is a healthy, enjoyable activity that they do. They do it on the roads because that is where it is done. The law, and common sense, provides for the proper sharing of the road with them. They are not an inconvenience. They are people who are simply using a different, legal mode of transportation.

Unless one of them runs into the side of my car (or comes close to doing so), I am not really affected by whether or not they fully stop at signs. So, I am just not going to care about it. I am going to continue on my way and enjoy my day. BTW, I have a lot more near misses with golf carts and autos than I do with bicycles.

Thank you. Please have a safe, and enjoyable day.

Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 1173101)

Hmmm you and tomwed have been measuring the width of the main thoroughfares here Morse/Buena Vista Blvds and found that they are approx 12 feet wide, with a three foot space needed between car/bicyclist. Seems to me Sumter County was sending a subtle message that perhaps bicycles do not belong on the road in The Villages because given the choice between cars/ bikes we know who is going to get preference.

Oh I'm just joshing:pepper2: I respect bikers rights to ride and their need to take responsibility for safe biking but don't ask me to like it because the last thing as a driver that I need is another obstruction to hamper my travels

Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 1173101)

Hmmm you and tomwed have been measuring the width of the main thoroughfares here Morse/Buena Vista Blvds and found that they are approx 12 feet wide, with a three foot space needed between car/bicyclist. Seems to me Sumter County was sending a subtle message that perhaps bicycles do not belong on the road in The Villages because given the choice between cars/ bikes we know who is going to get preference.

Oh I'm just joshing:pepper2: I respect bikers rights to ride and their need to take responsibility for safe biking but don't ask me to like it because the last thing as a driver that I need is another obstruction to hamper my travels

Originally Posted by Marathon Man (Post 1172792)

Friends, please.

Those people on the bicycles are our neighbors. They just want to be safe. I am troubled by what I read here. Riding a bike is a healthy, enjoyable activity that they do. They do it on the roads because that is where it is done. The law, and common sense, provides for the proper sharing of the road with them. They are not an inconvenience. They are people who are simply using a different, legal mode of transportation.

Unless one of them runs into the side of my car (or comes close to doing so), I am not really affected by whether or not they fully stop at signs. So, I am just not going to care about it. I am going to continue on my way and enjoy my day. BTW, I have a lot more near misses with golf carts and autos than I do with bicycles.

Thank you. Please have a safe, and enjoyable day.

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 1173216)

yes, and I guarantee both of us were out in the middle of the boulevard moving much slower than a cyclist!

Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 1173358)

Hi golfing eagles: Actually not when it comes to slow the only reason for me for being slow is an obstruction like a bike a slow car, construction etc. My sin is impatience with slow traffic

My only point in this thread is that the realty and human instinct (natural reaction) is to be somewhat annoyed with obstructions. Just because one has that thought it doesn't mean malice etc directed at anyone, Its just a fleeting thought, like a bad golf shot it disappears in seconds. but everything is politics and this thread reminds us of that fact.

Personal Best Regards:

Originally Posted by outlaw (Post 1172282)

cyclists have a right to be on the road, but they also have the requirement to ride safely as far to the right as possible. You do not have the authority to enforce traffic laws. That's what the police are for. Instead of forcing drivers into another lane, record the offending car's license number and report it to the authorities. Now, from a practical standpoint, you are never going to convince a significant portion of the driving population that you have as much right to the whole lane as they do. It ain't gonna happen. How long have cyclists been beating this drum? It seems like forever. So you can keep trying to dangerously enforce your interpretation of the laws, possibly/probably resulting in a competition of wills between two stubborn users of the road that may end with tragedy for both, but especially for you. Or you can accept that roads were built and primarily paid for by drivers, and learn to not only share the road, but try to defer to the driver and win them over one at a time. When i ride on the road (seldom), i try to accommodate drivers. For instance, when riding on a side street in tv, and i am riding abreast with someone else, i always convert to riding single file as far to the right as safely as possible, giving the driver almost two lanes to pass. What i find is 95% of the time, the driver goes all the way over almost completely into the other lane to pass me. And probably 100% of the time the driver gives me ample room, even though still partially in my lane. You are not helping the cycling community by insisting on drivers complying with your interpretation of sharing the road. You only hurt the cyclists that are willing to accommodate drivers, since it is obvious the roads were designed and built for autos, not bicycles. Drivers you p!ss off, then resent all cyclists.

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan (Post 1172861)

Wow!! By far the best post I've seen on this topic. :BigApplause:Now if we all could just accept the fact that there are cyclists on the road and they should be treated like a slow moving vehicle you'd pass safely then I've accomplished what I set out to do when I started this thread.:pray:

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 1173364)

Here are my musings on this subject, for what they're worth:

I'm only impatient with slow traffic when there is no reason for it.

After all the research I posted above, including walking out to the middle of Morse Blvd. with a tape measure, I feel cyclists should take over a lane for their own safety unless the lane is at least 14 feet wide, which is not the case in TV. I'm referring to serious cyclists who are riding in the 20-25-30 mph range, not a super senior tooling along at 8-10 mph--they should stay on the MMP. The roads were primarily designed for motor vehicles, the is no bike lane BECAUSE there are MMPs for vehicles travelling 20 mph or less.
Other legitimate reasons for slow downs include heavy traffic, construction zones and accidents. I don't get impatient with any of these, it's just a reality of driving.
Like you, I am not a "slow driver"--I don't speed in TV, I'm usually 1-2 mph under the 30 mph zones, 1-2 mph over in the 35 zones, and usually right at 45 in the 45 zones. Going any faster makes little sense, you gain a minute or so at best
Interstates are a different matter, especially on a long trip. I'll admit I set cruise control to 73 in a 65 zone and 78 in a 70 zone. At that speed, I'm usually passing 2/3 of the cars on the road and getting passed by 1/3. Which bring us to slow downs for absolutely no reason, which, like you, I get impatient with.
Number one pet peeve---some bozo chugging along at 55 in a 70 zone in the left lane. WHY? There are lots of these drivers on the interstates---even with no car for 1/2 mile ahead or behind in either lane, but there they are, just la-de-da-ing in the left lane. "Keep right except to pass" has a 2 syllable word in it--maybe it's too much for them to handle intellectually. I'll also admit that upon encountering these idiots, I pass them in a fashion that makes my displeasure pretty clear. I just wish a few of them would get cited by LEOs for failure to keep right, the word would get around pretty quickly and cut down on offenders. I'm always in the right lane, except to pass. Again, these people may not get into an accident themselves, but are likely to cause one in moderate+ traffic as the rest of the drivers make stupid moves to get around them.
Pet peeve #2---truckers that are going 56 pulling out in front of me to pass a truck going 55, especially when approaching an upgrade. 17 hours later and 10 miles of traffic back up and you may get past them.
Pet peeve #3. The guy who climbs up my back while I am passing slower traffic---even though I may have sped up to 80+ to pass and get over to the right to let him pass--then he passes me and drops down to 66, forcing me to get left and pass him---but upon noticing this he speeds back up, I drop in behind him and he slows down again---ARRRGHHH. The cousin to this guy is the one who comes up from behind like a bat out of he!! so I drop behind slower traffic that I had intended to pass, then he rides just off my back fender instead of passing, forcing me to brake for the cars ahead.
End of rant.