My understanding of the law is if a person points a gun at you it doesn't matter if he says nothing it is assumed he is going to pull the trigger.

The law realizes you don't have to wait to be shot at and possibly killed before you can pull the trigger.

Pointing a gun at anyone is playing stupid games and gonna win stupid prizes like your life.

I agree with you, but it sounds like a lot of folks are arguing against the shooter.

In my opinion - a reasonable person would flee. I have no obligation to do a lot of things that I do anyway, because I consider myself to be a reasonable person.

Like - if someone abandons their shopping cart on a windy day in the parking lot and I see it rolling fast toward a car - and in that split second I estimate that I can reach that cart and stop it without breaking my stride or detouring - I'll go ahead and stop the cart from rolling into someone's car. Because I'm reasonable. I have no obligation to do that, but I'll do it anyway.

https://www.meltzerandbell.com/news/...oes-it-entail/

This is interesting. I have not checked it for a while but Findlaw used to have a lot of interesting discussions on law as do various law professors.

Florida Second Degree Murder Laws - FindLaw

Law Professor Blog Network

You are still assuming that the deceased was unarmed...

And one does not need to see a gun to have their life be threatened...

I'd agree, unless "exiting stage left" was not an option...

Were you there? I didn't think so. Therefore, you have no idea what the shooter though, saw or what the deceased had or didn't have in his hand, nor how he acted towards the patrons in the restaurant...

Hence, the continued investigation...

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Apparently, he "pulled a gun" outside the restaurant, so...

And you actually think he was calling the people who left amidst gunfire just a few minutes earlier?

That ranks up there with the, "Let's have some pie" scenario...

True. But the "let's get out of Dodge" option certainly involves less paperwork in the aftermath...

Can a reasonable person outrun a bullet? Maybe superman could but not me...

No one was murdered, as of yet...

There was a homicide. The question will be: Was it justified or was it Murder?

Someone with a law degree would know that...

Because there is still an investigation going on and they are possibly actually trying to be responsible journalists?

I know... I laughed when typing that...

Nice non sequitur...

Exactly...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnoxAQZU8AAGGWp.jpg

Or you lost an eye.
If you have to wait to actually see the gun, it is likely already being fired. Bad things happen very quickly.

Opinion based on professional experience or just backside?

If you don't wait to actually see a gun then unarmed individuals wind up dead. Bad things did happen very quickly.

How does it go .... It is better that ten armed men live than one unarmed man be killed ... or something like that.

I seem to be less tolerant of smartasses than earlier in life so I am adding to my Ignore List.

About 50 years ago, I worked for Art Shamsky and Phil Linz in a bar that they owned in Queens, NY. I was behind the bar late on a slow night when a couple came in. After about a half hour, the male half of the duo got annoyed because his female partner was paying too much attention to the DJ. He left the bar. He reentered minutes later, carrying a lever action rifle, and yelled, “Are you coming with me?” She didn’t move. He fired a shot into the ceiling and asked, “Are you coming with me now?” No one in the bar moved. He then tried to put another round in the chamber, but he was having trouble. Again, no one in the bar moved. While he’s trying to figure out his problem with the rifle, she walks to him, grabs him and they leave. I went to the front door, locked it, and went back behind the bar and started serving drinks on-the-house. Nobody called the police. There must have been someone in the joint that was heeled given its location near Pep McGuire’s, a nearby bar that was frequented by cops and crooks. It was almost like nothing happened. Nobody fled.

Theorize all you want. Whatever happens... happens.

Looks like a clear case in 2023 of defense of others up to the point his rifle jammed unless he then would have turned it around and used it as a club.

Experience, yes. Professional, no. And FYI no one was harmed, one arrested (the other guy) and police confiscated a number of illegal weapons (his).

And the saying goes, "better ten guilty men go free than one innocent man suffer unjustly" ... or something like that.

So if I ever see you in a town square, and I observe you putting your hand in your pocket, the law would consider it "reasonable" for me to shoot you?

Because y'know - I shouldn't have to wait to see the gun.

[QUOTE=Taltarzac725;2202461And I have a law degree from the U of MN. Class of 1989. The current Attorney General of MN is Class of 1990.[/QUOTE]

My condolences

I hope not. I need many adjustments during the day.

I never met him at the U of MN but my roommate/girlfriend Jennifer back then was in the same class. I was writing all the State AGs back in the early 1990s but he was not at that level yet. These letters were about practical materials in law libraries for survivors/victims of crimes. I got a good number of responses back then and then tried to share them through various means. And spotlight them by other ways.

Jennifer said he wanted to make it to the US Supreme Court. I do recall he was a devout Muslim back then. I did hang out with an African American law student a lot my 1st and 2nd year of law school but found more actual friends by my 3rd.

Even if the guy doesn't get charged I’m sure the family is going to file a wrongful death lawsuit, probably win and bankrupt this guy.

Just remember OJ’s civil case.

There are groups that would help him with that. One was mentioned in the thread. I try not to get into politics on TOTV.

Yes! If I am ever causing a scene and you feel in fear of your life (from ME? Now that is funny.), by all means, OrangeBlossomBaby, You may shoot me.

Oh no - not if you're causing a scene. Just if you put your hand in your pocket. Because who knows - you could be some crazy person who hates country music trying to blend in, and NOT causing a scene. Until that one moment when you choose to reach for your glock.

I have no reason to think you're just reaching for a tissue to blow your nose. I think it's a gun. And I'm a reasonable person. So I'm gonna shoot you before you have the chance to unload your cartridge of death on random line-dancers in the square.

Apparently that is justifiable, if the criteria for whether it's reasonable to shoot someone is "they put their hand in their pocket and you therefore determine there MIGHT be a gun in that pocket."

No. Apples and Oranges- and you know it. How does your town square example mimic the conditions of gun fire, violence, people feeling terror and worried for their lives that were present at the restaurant? If rather than a peaceful town square the square was full of gun fire, violence, people feeling terror and worried for their lives then your example could be debated by intelligent people.

We have little facts about that. We would need to know more about the relationships, if any, between the people outside and those inside. It sounds like a personal argument was going on outside and the man shot got angry that those inside were getting involved. Probably some kind of domestic dispute going on outside with the shooting man getting upset about it and started shooting into the air.

This is conjecture though. With no gun found the people in the car might have been doing the shooting up in the air. Unless the man shot has gunshot residue on his hand or hands.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. OBB has my permission to shoot ME, only, if I stick my hand in my pants.

Probably shouldn't tell you here, but I don't have a Glock. More of a gherkin, actually. Small calibre, single shot. But admit it, them line dancers got it comin'! (Nobody panick! It's just a dumb joke, OK.)

I don't know... I've never heard anything like that...

If he's acting in a threatening manner, and you have a reasonable fear for your life, yes...

But you knew that...

If you actually thought that, you would NOT be a reasonable person...

But you knew that...

More speculation, but based on the information known so far. Witnesses stated that the deceased fired a handgun into the air while having a verbal altercation with the people in the car. Does that sound like a reasonable, responsible and rational person to be around? My life experiences have shown me that these types of people usually have a criminal record. It very well could be that the deceased had a felony conviction and is therefore not allowed to own or possess a firearm. Due to the fact that no firearm was found, possibly the Darwin Awardee tossed the gun before entering the restaurant because he knew that the police were called, and he didn't want to be caught with a gun. That would get him hard time in a federal prison.
The other alternative is that someone in the restaurant who knew him took the gun so it wouldn't be in the possession of the man who was shot and be charged with illegal possession had he lived.
A couple speculations that make more sense than he was reaching in his pocket for a cell phone to call the people in the car that he had the altercation with.

I am pretty sure someone--the police-- would have checked the surrounding area for a tossed gun. And I doubt if anyone tampered with the evidence unless they were very close to the person killed.

Witnesses are not very reliable in these kind of situations either. Especially when the adrenaline is flowing.

Wow, Applebee's is open to 1 AM during the week and 2 on the weekends ? Are they trying to upstage Maragarita Republic as the place for drunken foolishness after midnight?

. Normal hours for them