Talk of The Villages Florida

Talk of The Villages Florida (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/)
-   The Villages, Florida, General Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/)
-   -   Significant financial distress (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/significant-financial-distress-360297/)

Haggar 07-29-2025 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimhoward (Post 2449235)
Most privately held corporations are small businesses (less the 500 employees). There are some exceptions, Mars, Publix, and Cargill come to mind, but most are small. Often times the personal assets of the owners in those small companies are pledged against corporate debt.

In the case of Villages Health, its not even a corporation it an LLC. Now if you want to talk LLCs I think there is a argument to be made concerning assets of owners. There the owners are getting the benefit of liability protection, but without incurring the cost of double taxation, and with lower cost of administration. That seems like too good a deal.

There is no federal income tax return.

Single member LLC's can be disregarded for tax purposes and the income or the loss reported on their personal return. Multiple member LLC's are reported as either partnerships or corporations. If they have less than 100 members they can elect to taxes as a S Corp avoiding double taxation. Most large LLC's are taxed as C Corporations..

Most small business are able to avoid double taxation. Most large businesses don't.

There is no lower administrative cost because they are a LLC.

The concept of not being able to pierce the corporate veil is what protects investors and allows them to be able to invest in small businesses which may grow larger. Remove the corporate veil and you can say goodbye to many corporate startups and the economy

retiredguy123 07-29-2025 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggar (Post 2449360)
Please explain why you say there are no owners of a corporation. Who are the shareholders if not the owners?

It may be mostly semantics, but according to LegalZoom:

"A corporation is a legal entity that exists independently of its owners. This corporate structure protects shareholders from being held personally liable for business debts. Corporate status also means that the company can, on its own behalf, enter into and enforce contracts, buy and sell property and own assets, and make political contributions."

Joecooool 07-29-2025 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drducat (Post 2449294)
To make matters worse United Healthcare has filed an objections over the sale. They feel their contracture obligation should have put them first on the list to buy..plus they believe they are the largest creditor.

So yes it is time to look for alternative health care

Awesome. They are also charged with overcharging Medicare.

UnitedHealth Doctored Medicare Records, Overbilled U.S. By $1 Billion, Feds Claim - KFF Health News

kingofbeer 07-29-2025 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCKETMAN (Post 2449080)
The words used by the person in put in charge of villages health system. He said they need to borrow 24 million to sustain operations, which I assume to pay employees and leases on 10 buildings. By his comments the only way out of this situation is to be taken over by Humana, but I assume the bankruptcy judge would have to approve this. Still not clear on the overbilling. Does that mean Medicare was over billed but the money was never actually paid. Going back as long as it has, I would think they received some of that $350 billion.

350 million. not billion!

Stu from NYC 07-29-2025 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altavia (Post 2449325)
Given the complexity and ambiguities coding a patient, is it likely most any medical facility would have similar audit results under the same level of scrutiny?

For a small sum can see that happening but when we are talking about hundreds of millions seems unlikely.

Joecooool 07-29-2025 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worldseries27 (Post 2449307)
Mistakes are not crimes.


LOL, they sure can be. Have you never heard of "Ignorantia juris non excusat"?

This Latin phrase translates to "Ignorance of the law is no excuse". It means that individuals cannot escape legal responsibility just because they were unaware of the law. Whether intentional or not, violations of laws can still lead to consequences, especially in highly regulated sectors like healthcare.

Ignorantia juris non excusat - Wikipedia

In order to run a Medicare Advantage plan, strict compliance with federal regulations is required, especially in areas like coding and billing. The government mandates that professionals employed in these roles are properly trained and certified by recognized, independent agencies. Certifications like the Certified Professional Coder (CPC), awarded by the American Academy of Professional Coders (AAPC), or the Certified Coding Specialist (CCS) offered by the American Health Information Management Association (AHIMA), are crucial for ensuring compliance with Medicare's complex rules.

Individuals working in healthcare billing and compliance must also hold certifications like Certified in Healthcare Compliance (CHC) from the Compliance Certification Board. These certifications ensure accuracy and legitimacy in billing processes, specifically to mitigate the risk of errors that could lead to legal or financial penalties.

This is not just a matter of following protocol, it's a legal requirement. The Medicare program is under constant oversight by agencies like CMS (Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services), and any failure to comply with the established rules, even if accidental, can result in significant repercussions. Mistakes in coding, billing, or compliance, even if unintentional, can lead to fraud charges, fines, and even criminal liability.

So mistakes can be criminal if they lead to fraudulent claims, improper reimbursements, or violations of federal standards.

Snowbirdtobe 07-29-2025 10:07 AM

In my post Villages Health where did all the money go back on July 12 I said.
"I noticed that the rent was paid to TV. The rent looks to be 1,135,000 per month, but no rent is forecast for October, Nov, or Dec in the pro-forma DIP budget."
I''ll bet most companies stiff the landlord as part of the effort to conserve cash especially when the landlord is part of the "family". I'll bet there are other issues that an audit will show up.
Sucking money out of a bankrupt company before filing might be an issue.
Many people in the past have said they were experts and I didn't know about healthcare or Medicare.
here is what I posted on July 14.
"If the money was spent on making the Brownwood facility a wonderful place or burned in the parking lot that should have no effect on the ability for the new owner of serve the patients."
Follow the money.

vintageogauge 07-29-2025 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelhug52 (Post 2449293)
So, do we all start looking for new doctors?

Most of their doctors already retired once and are/were working part time. The PA's are the ones that will get hurt the most from this.

Snowbirdtobe 07-29-2025 01:08 PM

The patients will be hurt the most.
 
The patients, in my opinion, will be hurt the most. If you have incorrect medical information in your file it may STOP you from transferring to a Medicare Supplement Plan.
For example BCBS said if you take more than 50 units a day of insulin a day they will not take you.
Transfer to a MA plan is possible despite your health history.

Tobys Dad 07-29-2025 05:02 PM

[QUOTE=Worldseries27;2449307]i agree. Too many hanging judges in the world. Mistakes are not crimes. If it can be saved, do so, if not, replace with better options. Let the courts decide the merits later. Patients need help not turmoil[/QUOT
You say ‘’mistakes”, possible, but outright theft may be more appropriate. IMHO:shrug:

Ruger2506 07-29-2025 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCKETMAN (Post 2449080)
The words used by the person in put in charge of villages health system. He said they need to borrow 24 million to sustain operations, which I assume to pay employees and leases on 10 buildings. By his comments the only way out of this situation is to be taken over by Humana, but I assume the bankruptcy judge would have to approve this. Still not clear on the overbilling. Does that mean Medicare was over billed but the money was never actually paid. Going back as long as it has, I would think they received some of that $350 billion.

I think it’s safe to say The Villages healthcare was stealing government monies. Not sure how it was laundered or whatever but I’m pretty sure it was stolen. They knew exactly what they were doing.

ROCKETMAN 08-01-2025 07:14 AM

Reporting
 
Unfortunately we won’t have any source other than villages news to know what is going on. Daily sun had one article and I doubt until situation resolved, won’t see any more. If we didn’t have village news we wouldn’t know that Mr. Luria is getting $150,000 a month to oversee the bankruptcy and possible Humana takeover. Don’t think united health care will let this go without a fight.

golfing eagles 08-01-2025 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruger2506 (Post 2449486)
I think it’s safe to say The Villages healthcare was stealing government monies. Not sure how it was laundered or whatever but I’m pretty sure it was stolen. They knew exactly what they were doing.

"Safe" to say that???? "Stole monies"???? "Laundered it"????

Well, in sporting competitions it is best to be confident

So, I suppose that degree of confidence is advantageous in the "TOTV jump to conclusions even though I have no idea what I'm talking about" Olympics.

Stu from NYC 08-01-2025 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 2450002)
"Safe" to say that???? "Stole monies"???? "Laundered it"????

Well, in sporting competitions it is best to be confident

So, I suppose that degree of confidence is advantageous in the "TOTV jump to conclusions even though I have no idea what I'm talking about" Olympics.

Time will tell but would think that these large medical practices will benchmark their results with other practices and notice their profit margins are much higher and wonder why.

golfing eagles 08-01-2025 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC (Post 2450066)
Time will tell but would think that these large medical practices will benchmark their results with other practices and notice their profit margins are much higher and wonder why.

The "why" will probably be economy of scale, but time will tell.


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