Written by someone who knows how to drive. I would concur!!!

Last time I checked
 

I don't need to justify my opinion to you. I feel certain intersections need to be controlled by traffic arrows. My opinion, yours is different. Big deal.

It's pretty bad. Crossing 301 at 472, especially at night, one could easily enter the 301 turn lane. There are no "do not enter" signs at these turn lanes. And I don't recall any "right turn only" signs on 472. The turn lanes are perfectly lined up with 472, appearing to be a staging area to cross 301. Worst design I have ever encountered imho.

No big deal at all. My point was simply that adding those "controls' may have unintended consequences, and that by making the turn safer, you may make the end of the turn line less safe. I think you may have misunderstood my original point, and perhaps I worded it poorly. I believe you took my post to advocate unsafe turns to save a few minutes. Far from it. Each time you approach these turns is a bit different, and the driver needs to exercise judgment and an awareness of his surroundings.
Let me use turning left on BV from heading west on 466A as an example:
I can see the light from over a mile away--this gives me a gestalt on whether the light will turn when or shortly after I arrive. If it is obvious that it is going to turn red, I even slow down a bit , let it change and wait for the arrow. As I approach the turn lane, even before entering it, I am observing and evaluating the traffic flow in the other direction. I know in advance if this is going to be an easy turn or near impossible, again , in the latter case, I stop short of the intersection and wait for the arrow. If the traffic in the other direction is light, I will pull up to the center line of the intersection, since I will be able to turn, and only rarely do I have to turn on yellow since I know what is coming in the other direction. Also, never turn your wheels left until you start to turn, otherwise you run the risk that a distracted driver will rear end you and push your car into the path of oncoming traffic. Even as I'm driving along 466A, I avoid riding side by side with another car--they are too unpredictable and there is very little reaction time if they do something stupid. I've been driving for 45 years and have never been in an accident BECAUSE I am aware of my surroundings, despite driving in NYC and Long Island most of those years.

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;1188555]O
"Entering the intersection just to wait for the light to change so you can make the turn is absurd."----Don't remember saying THAT. But if I am the first car in line to make a left, I will pull up to the center line of the cross road, since I will turn on yellow if needed. Do you stay back at the end of the turn lane? If so, and since you state you cannot see what is coming, you then sit there as the light turns red? That is essentially a self imposed red turn arrow, except that you are imposing it on everyone behind you as well.

GE, I agree with most of what you say except that I think that it's against the law to wait in the middle of the intersection to make a left turn. I think the law states you cannot block the intersection. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[QUOTE=Walter123;1188641]You cannot block an intersection, but by pulling forward when the light is green in your direction, you are not blocking it, unless you sit there until it turns green in the opposite direction.

A classic P!$$ing contest.....................

Of course. Isn't that what makes TOTV a great forum?:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

And here's another example of why we all have to drive defensively and be thinking all the time, from just yesterday:

Exiting Hillsborough gate to go south on BV, I took the inner lane to go around 270. Some yahoo tailgated me through the gate and continue to ride 5 feet off my rear bumper. As we got 1/4 around, another bozo coming from the north on BV failed to yield the right of way and entered the RB in the outer lane right alongside me, then made an obscene gesture as I used my horn (for safety reasons, of course:1rotfl:). Now, being quite familiar with this RB there were 2 possibilities: Either she was unaware of the bypass lane and was going to head south on BV (1%) or she was going to go around 270 to the Hillsborough gate (99%). So I slowed down and let her get ahead, at which point the guy behind me leaned on his horn to get me to speed up! Of course, the lady did exactly as predicted---headed to the gate. If I did not slow up because of awareness of the likely scenario, there would have been a 3 car accident. They both deserved a one finger salute, but that would have left me steering with my knees. The worst thing is that, even though I was the only one driving through the RB correctly, I would have had both front end and rear end damage as they sandwiched me!

[QUOTE=Walter123;1188641]Absolutely correct! It is in opposition to the law. There is even a catch phrase for it. "Don't block the box." The "box" is a rectangle or square created by imaginary (or sometimes painted) lines. It consists of the space where cars coming in from all directions might intersect.

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;1188643]I tried a quick google and really couldn't find a definitive answer. The only thing I would worry about would be someone coming straight through from the opposite direction when they have a yellow light too. Usually that guy will be accelerating. I have been in this situation and left in the middle of the intersection when the light turns red and if more than one guy wants to beat the yellow light you could find yourself in a bad situation.
It's a gray area because you can't predict what other drivers will do. So I guess it depends on the situation before I would know what I would do.

[QUOTE=dbussone;1188659]You're not blocking it, you are passing through it. The phrase you quote was intended for urban traffic where drivers pull straight thru to the end of a back up that leaves them in the intersection when the light changes, thus creating gridlock. You have to experience it in Midtown Manhattan to have full appreciation of the effect.

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;1188661]I have experienced traffic in Manhattan, Boston (for years), LA, etc And the traffic we have here this time of year is already pretty nasty. If you stop in the box, you are not passing through it. And if you are still there when the light changes, you will be blocking it.

[QUOTE=dbussone;1188668]Agreed---just don't be there when the light changes. And as I posted above, don't enter it when it is obvious you are not going to be able to turn safely due to oncoming flow of traffic. What I'm really getting at is the times when 1 or 2 cars are coming and the light won't change for a while, which are the same times that a red arrow would be a detriment rather than an enhancement.

From Florida statutes:
316.151 Required position and method of turning at intersections.—
(1) The driver of a vehicle intending to turn at an intersection shall do so as follows:
(a) Right turn.—Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway.

(b) Left turn.—The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left at any intersection shall approach the intersection in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of such vehicle, and, after entering the intersection, the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection in a lane lawfully available to traffic moving in such direction upon the roadway being entered. A person riding a bicycle and intending to turn left in accordance with this section is entitled to the full use of the lane from which the turn may legally be made. Whenever practicable the left turn shall be made in that portion of the intersection to the left of the center of the intersection.

Interestingly here's what the Florida DMV has to say about the line for a left turn backing up into the left highway lane:

6.If you are not going a safe speed or are not in the proper lane you should drive to the next intersection to make your turn. And if there are vehicles occupying the turn lane you should not block traffic. Continue on to the next intersection.

Now how many of us actually do THAT?????

It's weird the way the quots and responses are coming out.

I have been drawn into quite a few and I don't have the right equipment and it gets very uncomfortable.

You know , GG, that I try to avoid them as well. But sometimes a poster just needs to be called out, if not for an off-base opinion but for their decorum

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;1188681]
We agree.

You mean decorum like this?:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Obviously not!:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

That little guy is almost a requirement (sorry P Bear)

More like nasty name calling, the kind the rest of us outgrew in grade school

I do think it's a great plan to lower the speed limit to 45 MPH in that area. There is a new shopping center going up on the south side of Hwy. 44, and the existing shopping center at Publix, so the speed limit should be 45MPH

That really isn't a bad idea, after all the speed limit drops shortly past Grand Traverse headed west anyway, and the eastbound traffic can certainly wait another 3/4 mile to speed up to 55. I guess the government decision on this may depend on whether speed, rather than stupidity, was determined to be a factor in the accidents that have occurred there.

Traffic accidents at Powell Rd and Rt. 44
 

Only in your mind.

That's the one
 

that matters most!

Not when driving...'right' matters most.

Exactly
 

And for that reason, I err on the side of safety, rather than trying to save a few minutes in traffic.

You are not erring on the side of safety. Making a left turn on a green ball at a properly designed intersection is perfectly safe. And it significantly increases the traffic handling capacity of an intersection...without compromising safety.

You are never 100% safe using any transportation system. But you are as safe making a left-turn-yield movement as you are anyplace else in the system. And that includes going past the stop bar as oncoming traffic approaches, then proceeding when a gap appears. Or if there is no gap, you wait for the signal to turn red...not yellow, red...and then complete your left turn while being aware of possible red-light-runners. You have plenty of time to safely complete the left turn in any case. And it is perfectly legal to complete your left turn on the red light as long as you were in the intersection PRIOR TO the light turning red.

By the way, "Don't Block the Box" refers to blocking an intersection such that you can't move after your light turns red. That keeps opposing traffic that has green from moving and in a worst case scenario causes gridlock. It does NOT refer to a left turner awaiting a gap or a signal change to complete a turn into an open lane.

Just for the record, I am a Professional Engineer in the State of Florida. I have a Masters Degree in Transportation Engineering from the University of Florida. I worked in the field for roughly thirty years before retiring.

Geez. Impressed with yourself much?
 

I was referring to those who creep out into the intersection waiting for the yellow so they can make a turn. And you damn sake better err on the side of safety when you drive.

I know you were. And as long as they wait either for a gap or for the signal to turn red (not yellow) they are making the left turn properly...and safely.

Agreed.

How many cars can cross the stop bar and wait on a red light to make their left turn at one time ? Safely and legally?

Probably 2 or 3, but I NEVER pull into the intersection behind a car that has already done so---you lose all control of the situation and are now dependent on the actions of the guy in front of you, not a good idea, especially in TV. As far as the light changing red and getting stuck in the intersection, it rarely happens, not if you are paying attention, but while you may draw a horn or a finger, I doubt anyone who was stopped in the cross road would accelerate right into you when the light changes

It really just depends on the geometrics of the intersection. But like GE said, if you're not the first, you have lost some control of the situation.

As far as getting stuck in the intersection when the light turns red, it should never happen. You must keep the signal in view and be aware when it changes to red. Then, you complete your turn after making sure all the approaching traffic is stopping. There is plenty of time to do this safely. At larger intersections, there is usually a brief, 1-2 second all-red phase between a change of green phases. This is specifically to allow clearing of the intersection, insuring safety against yellow-light-stretchers/red-light-runners, and allowing left turns to be completed.

Stop all the crap about right turn on red. To many think they have the right away over on coming traffic. Lets just have red means stop no exceptions.

Not enough of this hump and valley has been mentioned. I believe it is one of the major problems causing the accidents as people familiar slow down tremendously while others proceed at a normal speed and bottom out their front end. You can see all the marks in the intersection. Very poor planning!

It's knowing the lay of the land which helps. For those unfamiliar it doesn't. As to HP, I have a supercharged muscle car and will not take it thru that intersection of 44 and Powell due to that dip in the intersection. How could someone from the DOT approve that.

???