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Talk of The Villages Florida (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/)
-   The Villages, Florida, General Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/)
-   -   Traffic controls in the tri-counties (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/traffic-controls-tri-counties-320168/)

Malsua 05-31-2021 06:29 AM
While I've been coming to and owned in TV for years and finally just got my NJ house on the market, I have pretty good handle on the way FL vs NJ handles traffic. This is probably the _ONLY_ thing NJ does better than FL.

Traffic flow.

Every trip on 441 in either direction, you will catch every light. The length of the lights on the main highway are ridiculous too. The Yellows are not long enough as well, they need at least another second and yes, that is a _PROVEN_ way to reduce collisions and save lives.

This applies to any major road. Side roads are given way too much priority. You stop 200 cars so 3 cars can get out? Dumb. Make the 3 cars turn right if they don't want to wait and get turned around further down the road.

In college, one of my senior level courses was GPSS which is a time and traffic simulation program. While I was only peripherally involved(I built the module for a low volume intersection), one of the really good programmers put together all our modules and simulated the entire campus traffic system. He submitted his recommendations to the prof who took it to the board who submitted it to the city who in fact changed all the lights. The result? It eliminated two major bottlenecks.

I have to think that FDOT has some talented programmers and engineers, do they just ignore them?

J1ceasar 05-31-2021 06:30 AM
As I was discussing just last night, the rotary is here are very poorly designed as their diameter is about 1/4 of what they should be for proper usage. I will never ever get into the inside Lane whether or not I have to go exit the first second or the third turn. The only time I answer the rotary is when there is nobody to the left of me in the rotary or to the right of me in the rotary at least one quarter circle behind. In other words it has to be damn empty for me because there isn't enough time to make a decision when you're doing even 25 miles an hour and there's only 50 ft to decide to go left or right or turn. Whoever allowed the rotaries at the state level did a very poor job PS I'm from New Jersey and New York and I damn well know how to drive

J1ceasar 05-31-2021 06:31 AM
You do know however and it's hundreds of thousands of dollars to put in a right turn lane and that right turn Lanes do back up the other two lanes 50% of the time

noslices1 05-31-2021 06:32 AM
The traffic lights that have left turn arrows and then left turn red arrows are intersections that have had a history of left turn accidents, due to the impatience of us crabby old drivers. If you notice, there is even a 2 or 3 second delay when one light turns red and the other turns green. This is for all those impatient grumpy old people who know they can make that light, even though it turns yellow 100 feet before they get to it. Saves lives when they adjust the lights to make you wait a few seconds before you can race to the next light.

golfing eagles 05-31-2021 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy and Ed (Post 1952956)
I can add two additional frustrations:

The traffic in the rotary has the right of way. Some drivers from one particular unnamed state are apparently taught that traffic entering the circle has the right of way. Result? Traffic in the circle slows and bunches up to allow the incoming vehicle to enter. WRONG.

Next: Rotaries here need some getting use to. Once you have been here awhile this isn’t a problem since you expect it. For newer residents or seasonal residents, this may be an issue. Some of the rotaries have two marked dotted line exit lanes from the rotary both going into some village entrances. It is possible for traffic in the right lane which is proceeding STRAIGHT past the exit to cross with traffic in the left lane attempting to leave the rotary to enter the village. The road markings show a turn possible from the left lane. The issue might. be resolved by somehow changing the road markings to reflect only the right lane may leave the rotary.

I never leave a rotary from the left lane regardless of how the lanes are marked
You might want to review proper rotary driving yourself. The reason 2 lanes "exit" the rotary is that 2 lanes enter the rotary and can go straight through 180 degrees. There are 2 ways that some bozo will cross in front of a car exiting from the left (inner) lane.
1) They entered alongside you, but were going 270 degrees to the 3rd exit (ridiculous, but drivers do it all the time)
2) Someone entered the right (outer) lane from the 1st exit while you were coming around and then went straight (also prohibited, vehicles entering the RB MUST yield to traffic in EITHER lane, but it also happens daily)

There are some rotaries that have 2 lanes but a single lane "exit", but those are easily managed as well. All in all, the RBs work pretty well if drivers would learn to navigate them properly

Girlcopper 05-31-2021 06:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grill Meister (Post 1952768)
TRAFFIC CONTROLS IN THE TRI-COUNTIES
Let’s begin with my admitting that I am an impatient son-of-a-gun and if things don’t go my way I have a hissy fit.

I have some terrible issues with the traffic controls in Tri-Counties. I have lived in North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, California and Florida (Miami, Sarasota, St. Pete, Tampa, Jacksonville, Tallahassee and now The Villages) and I have never experienced the traffic controls like the ones we face daily….if we’re out on the highways.
In most other locations, the traffic engineers time the traffic signals to have an orderly flow of traffic. The primary issue is, of course, is SAFETY. The flow of traffic traveling at the posted speed limit should be able to continue through the traffic signals without having to stop. But not here. If you drive on US 441/27 you are lucky if you can get through two traffic signals without stopping and I mean lucky. Most of the time, you will have to stop at every stinking light. We drove through Leesburg this morning and every….EVERY light caught us.

And, I have never experienced the left turn arrow as we have here. In most locations, other than the tri-counties, you may have a left turn arrow, which gives you total right of way against opposing traffic. When that turn arrow goes to caution (yellow) you know that your right of way against opposing traffic is about to cease and you need to prepare to stop. But, then after the caution light goes off, you have a green light….in most other locations; but you also have opposing traffic, so you have better wait until you have a break in traffic before your turn left. Here, in the tri-counties, the turn arrow goes to red and you sit and sit and sit, even though there may not be any traffic coming at you. And that’s compounded by some wonderful driver who will not pull out into the intersection so that they can turn left when the traffic has a gap or when the light turns red. AAAARRRRGGGG!!!

Another wonderful bit of timing frequently occurs and the intersection of Buenos Aries and Hwy 466. Those lights are so timed that there may be no traffic at all allowed through in any direction. Cars on 466 in both directions just sit. Traffic on Buenos Aires just sit. Ain’t nobody goin’ no where.

Now can somebody explain to this growly impatient pain in the #$$@ what is going on?

I realize that I can rationalize my feelings with the justification that all that idle time you are just sitting in your automobile is a terrible waste of gasoline, polluting the environment, but I admitted that I am impatient and I am, but my greatest area of impatience is stupidity. You can’t cure stupidity and the traffic controls around here are just stupid.

And….I might add….I love our seasonal neighbors, aka, Snow Birds. They are great people and make great friends and neighbors. It’s those other idiots that come down here and don’t know how to drive around The Villages that get on our nerves. The are arrogant, abusive, antagonistic, rude and just down right nasty and they give a bad name to our wonderful seasonal neighbors whom we love so dearly.

Incidentally, I do not moan and groan about “the developer” making money and increasing prices. They must make a profit. It’s their investment of time, money and resources and they damned sure should make a profit. Do you want to live in a community that was created and controlled by a bunch of idiots? If they didn’t make profits, they would go bankrupt and leave us high and dry to fend for ourselves. But the traffic around here stinks.:ohdear::ohdear::ohdear:
Just for the record. Its illegal to pull into the intersection while you wait for a break in traffic to make your turn. I know. Iknow. Everyone does it and so do I BUT those people are just obeying traffic laws

noslices1 05-31-2021 06:38 AM
Your fault
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J1ceasar (Post 1952974)
As I was discussing just last night, the rotary is here are very poorly designed as their diameter is about 1/4 of what they should be for proper usage. I will never ever get into the inside Lane whether or not I have to go exit the first second or the third turn. The only time I answer the rotary is when there is nobody to the left of me in the rotary or to the right of me in the rotary at least one quarter circle behind. In other words it has to be damn empty for me because there isn't enough time to make a decision when you're doing even 25 miles an hour and there's only 50 ft to decide to go left or right or turn. Whoever allowed the rotaries at the state level did a very poor job PS I'm from New Jersey and New York and I damn well know how to drive
If you make a left turn in a round about from the right hand lane, any accident in the round about will be YOUR fault! Open your eyes and look for the BIG green signs, 100 feet before each one, showing which lanes to be in if you want to turn or go straight. Maybe you should give up your license and sell your car if you can’t safely navigate the traffic.

MandoMan 05-31-2021 06:38 AM
I’ve lived in Virginia (DC area), Southern California, Pennsylvania, Colorado, etc., and driven when I can’t avoid it in NYC and Philadelphia. I’ve been in a lot of traffic jams in cities and on freeways. I hear your frustration, and I also get annoyed by lights that change when there is no need. However, I don’t consider the traffic signals on 441 unusually bad. As happens most places, if there is no road construction and no traffic, cars can zip right through with few stops. When traffic is heavy, the system doesn’t work as well. Still, I can usually drive from Total Wine to WalMart in about five minutes, I think. Maybe ten at the worst rush hour. I can live with that. Lights that don’t change unless there is cross traffic from small roads can be great, but they don’t work as well when there is a long string of synchronised signals in a business district. Too complicated, and they break the flow pattern. Still, signals have come a long way since we were kids. I admit that I’ve often sat on Morse at 466 at 9 pm for two minutes, the only car in sight, and wished I could just proceed with caution.

What annoys me is people at a light who are texting and decide to finish the text before starting, so only three cars get through the signal instead of ten.

As for traffic on roads in The Villages, apart from unavoidable heavy traffic at times on Morse north of 466 (two blocks from my house), I consider it a miracle of traffic engineering.

golfing eagles 05-31-2021 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J1ceasar (Post 1952974)
As I was discussing just last night, the rotary is here are very poorly designed as their diameter is about 1/4 of what they should be for proper usage. I will never ever get into the inside Lane whether or not I have to go exit the first second or the third turn. The only time I answer the rotary is when there is nobody to the left of me in the rotary or to the right of me in the rotary at least one quarter circle behind. In other words it has to be damn empty for me because there isn't enough time to make a decision when you're doing even 25 miles an hour and there's only 50 ft to decide to go left or right or turn. Whoever allowed the rotaries at the state level did a very poor job PS I'm from New Jersey and New York and I damn well know how to drive
Are you seriously stating that you INTENTIONALLY stay in the right (outer) lane even if you are going around 270 to the 3rd exit?????? If so, you are not only part of the problem and not part of the solution, but EXTREMELY DANGEROUS as well to the rest of us who know what we are doing. Please stay off the road or learn to drive a RB!

eeroger 05-31-2021 06:44 AM
Traffic Lights
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grill Meister (Post 1952768)
TRAFFIC CONTROLS IN THE TRI-COUNTIES
Let’s begin with my admitting that I am an impatient son-of-a-gun and if things don’t go my way I have a hissy fit.

I have some terrible issues with the traffic controls in Tri-Counties. I have lived in North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, California and Florida (Miami, Sarasota, St. Pete, Tampa, Jacksonville, Tallahassee and now The Villages) and I have never experienced the traffic controls like the ones we face daily….if we’re out on the highways.
In most other locations, the traffic engineers time the traffic signals to have an orderly flow of traffic. The primary issue is, of course, is SAFETY. The flow of traffic traveling at the posted speed limit should be able to continue through the traffic signals without having to stop. But not here. If you drive on US 441/27 you are lucky if you can get through two traffic signals without stopping and I mean lucky. Most of the time, you will have to stop at every stinking light. We drove through Leesburg this morning and every….EVERY light caught us.

And, I have never experienced the left turn arrow as we have here. In most locations, other than the tri-counties, you may have a left turn arrow, which gives you total right of way against opposing traffic. When that turn arrow goes to caution (yellow) you know that your right of way against opposing traffic is about to cease and you need to prepare to stop. But, then after the caution light goes off, you have a green light….in most other locations; but you also have opposing traffic, so you have better wait until you have a break in traffic before your turn left. Here, in the tri-counties, the turn arrow goes to red and you sit and sit and sit, even though there may not be any traffic coming at you. And that’s compounded by some wonderful driver who will not pull out into the intersection so that they can turn left when the traffic has a gap or when the light turns red. AAAARRRRGGGG!!!

Another wonderful bit of timing frequently occurs and the intersection of Buenos Aries and Hwy 466. Those lights are so timed that there may be no traffic at all allowed through in any direction. Cars on 466 in both directions just sit. Traffic on Buenos Aires just sit. Ain’t nobody goin’ no where.

Now can somebody explain to this growly impatient pain in the #$$@ what is going on?

I realize that I can rationalize my feelings with the justification that all that idle time you are just sitting in your automobile is a terrible waste of gasoline, polluting the environment, but I admitted that I am impatient and I am, but my greatest area of impatience is stupidity. You can’t cure stupidity and the traffic controls around here are just stupid.

And….I might add….I love our seasonal neighbors, aka, Snow Birds. They are great people and make great friends and neighbors. It’s those other idiots that come down here and don’t know how to drive around The Villages that get on our nerves. The are arrogant, abusive, antagonistic, rude and just down right nasty and they give a bad name to our wonderful seasonal neighbors whom we love so dearly.

Incidentally, I do not moan and groan about “the developer” making money and increasing prices. They must make a profit. It’s their investment of time, money and resources and they damned sure should make a profit. Do you want to live in a community that was created and controlled by a bunch of idiots? If they didn’t make profits, they would go bankrupt and leave us high and dry to fend for ourselves. But the traffic around here stinks.:ohdear::ohdear::ohdear:
I can't speak for the lights on 441/27, but there does need to be a break in traffic on 466. The "one & only one" entrance from my village is on 466. Without a break in traffic, we are trapped in our village. As more and more apartments are built on 466, the traffic is almost non-stop.

One of these days, one of my neighbors or myself will get killed trying to access 466!!!

dlebuis 05-31-2021 06:48 AM
I agree. Seen too many accidents with people pulling out in intersection and thinking they can make it getting hit. Especially intersection of Morse and 466. With SUVs and trucks it’s often hard to see around them to make sure all lanes are clear. Since we’ve been here, there have been a few fatalities.

joseppe 05-31-2021 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grill Meister (Post 1952768)
TRAFFIC CONTROLS IN THE TRI-COUNTIES
Let’s begin with my admitting that I am an impatient son-of-a-gun and if things don’t go my way I have a hissy fit.

I have some terrible issues with the traffic controls in Tri-Counties. I have lived in North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, California and Florida (Miami, Sarasota, St. Pete, Tampa, Jacksonville, Tallahassee and now The Villages) and I have never experienced the traffic controls like the ones we face daily….if we’re out on the highways.
In most other locations, the traffic engineers time the traffic signals to have an orderly flow of traffic. The primary issue is, of course, is SAFETY. The flow of traffic traveling at the posted speed limit should be able to continue through the traffic signals without having to stop. But not here. If you drive on US 441/27 you are lucky if you can get through two traffic signals without stopping and I mean lucky. Most of the time, you will have to stop at every stinking light. We drove through Leesburg this morning and every….EVERY light caught us.

And, I have never experienced the left turn arrow as we have here. In most locations, other than the tri-counties, you may have a left turn arrow, which gives you total right of way against opposing traffic. When that turn arrow goes to caution (yellow) you know that your right of way against opposing traffic is about to cease and you need to prepare to stop. But, then after the caution light goes off, you have a green light….in most other locations; but you also have opposing traffic, so you have better wait until you have a break in traffic before your turn left. Here, in the tri-counties, the turn arrow goes to red and you sit and sit and sit, even though there may not be any traffic coming at you. And that’s compounded by some wonderful driver who will not pull out into the intersection so that they can turn left when the traffic has a gap or when the light turns red. AAAARRRRGGGG!!!

Another wonderful bit of timing frequently occurs and the intersection of Buenos Aries and Hwy 466. Those lights are so timed that there may be no traffic at all allowed through in any direction. Cars on 466 in both directions just sit. Traffic on Buenos Aires just sit. Ain’t nobody goin’ no where.

Now can somebody explain to this growly impatient pain in the #$$@ what is going on?

I realize that I can rationalize my feelings with the justification that all that idle time you are just sitting in your automobile is a terrible waste of gasoline, polluting the environment, but I admitted that I am impatient and I am, but my greatest area of impatience is stupidity. You can’t cure stupidity and the traffic controls around here are just stupid.

And….I might add….I love our seasonal neighbors, aka, Snow Birds. They are great people and make great friends and neighbors. It’s those other idiots that come down here and don’t know how to drive around The Villages that get on our nerves. The are arrogant, abusive, antagonistic, rude and just down right nasty and they give a bad name to our wonderful seasonal neighbors whom we love so dearly.

Incidentally, I do not moan and groan about “the developer” making money and increasing prices. They must make a profit. It’s their investment of time, money and resources and they damned sure should make a profit. Do you want to live in a community that was created and controlled by a bunch of idiots? If they didn’t make profits, they would go bankrupt and leave us high and dry to fend for ourselves. But the traffic around here stinks.:ohdear::ohdear::ohdear:
My guess is that your time in California was NOT southern California (L.A.) Spend a month or so in the LosAngeles or even Orange County(California Orange County) and you'll think this is a picnic.

Polar Bear 05-31-2021 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girlcopper (Post 1952980)
Just for the record. Its illegal to pull into the intersection while you wait for a break in traffic to make your turn…
Are you talking about a left turn when you have a green ball?

If so, it is NOT illegal. It is in fact the correct and 100% legal way to make your left turn.

Guitarman1951 05-31-2021 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grill Meister (Post 1952768)
TRAFFIC CONTROLS IN THE TRI-COUNTIES
Let’s begin with my admitting that I am an impatient son-of-a-gun and if things don’t go my way I have a hissy fit.

I have some terrible issues with the traffic controls in Tri-Counties. I have lived in North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, California and Florida (Miami, Sarasota, St. Pete, Tampa, Jacksonville, Tallahassee and now The Villages) and I have never experienced the traffic controls like the ones we face daily….if we’re out on the highways.
In most other locations, the traffic engineers time the traffic signals to have an orderly flow of traffic. The primary issue is, of course, is SAFETY. The flow of traffic traveling at the posted speed limit should be able to continue through the traffic signals without having to stop. But not here. If you drive on US 441/27 you are lucky if you can get through two traffic signals without stopping and I mean lucky. Most of the time, you will have to stop at every stinking light. We drove through Leesburg this morning and every….EVERY light caught us.

And, I have never experienced the left turn arrow as we have here. In most locations, other than the tri-counties, you may have a left turn arrow, which gives you total right of way against opposing traffic. When that turn arrow goes to caution (yellow) you know that your right of way against opposing traffic is about to cease and you need to prepare to stop. But, then after the caution light goes off, you have a green light….in most other locations; but you also have opposing traffic, so you have better wait until you have a break in traffic before your turn left. Here, in the tri-counties, the turn arrow goes to red and you sit and sit and sit, even though there may not be any traffic coming at you. And that’s compounded by some wonderful driver who will not pull out into the intersection so that they can turn left when the traffic has a gap or when the light turns red. AAAARRRRGGGG!!!

Another wonderful bit of timing frequently occurs and the intersection of Buenos Aries and Hwy 466. Those lights are so timed that there may be no traffic at all allowed through in any direction. Cars on 466 in both directions just sit. Traffic on Buenos Aires just sit. Ain’t nobody goin’ no where.

Now can somebody explain to this growly impatient pain in the #$$@ what is going on?

I realize that I can rationalize my feelings with the justification that all that idle time you are just sitting in your automobile is a terrible waste of gasoline, polluting the environment, but I admitted that I am impatient and I am, but my greatest area of impatience is stupidity. You can’t cure stupidity and the traffic controls around here are just stupid.

And….I might add….I love our seasonal neighbors, aka, Snow Birds. They are great people and make great friends and neighbors. It’s those other idiots that come down here and don’t know how to drive around The Villages that get on our nerves. The are arrogant, abusive, antagonistic, rude and just down right nasty and they give a bad name to our wonderful seasonal neighbors whom we love so dearly.

Incidentally, I do not moan and groan about “the developer” making money and increasing prices. They must make a profit. It’s their investment of time, money and resources and they damned sure should make a profit. Do you want to live in a community that was created and controlled by a bunch of idiots? If they didn’t make profits, they would go bankrupt and leave us high and dry to fend for ourselves. But the traffic around here stinks.:ohdear::ohdear::ohdear:
I get aggravated by bad drivers and heavy traffic as well but you have me beat by quite a bit!! 😜As my wife says sometimes, take a chill pill!! We are in one of the fastest growing areas in the entire nation. In consideration of that fact, I think overall, the local communities do a pretty good job in adjusting to it.
As far as your complaint about traffic lights, it must just be your bad luck. There are times when I've driven thru the various towns, Lady Lake, Leesburg, Bellevue, etc., and get thru numerous green lights before I catch a red. Other times, much like you said, catching a lot of reds. It's just timing I figure. I'm more aggravated by the crazy drivers, people not paying attention and all us old people whose driving prowness may not be what it once was!!! 😂
All in all, after fighting traffic in St. Louis for many years, experience in other big cities, especially LA & San Francisco, I'd take here over any of those anytime!! Chill my son, chill!! 😂😎

golfing eagles 05-31-2021 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grill Meister (Post 1952768)
TRAFFIC CONTROLS IN THE TRI-COUNTIES
Let’s begin with my admitting that I am an impatient son-of-a-gun and if things don’t go my way I have a hissy fit.

I have some terrible issues with the traffic controls in Tri-Counties. I have lived in North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, California and Florida (Miami, Sarasota, St. Pete, Tampa, Jacksonville, Tallahassee and now The Villages) and I have never experienced the traffic controls like the ones we face daily….if we’re out on the highways.
In most other locations, the traffic engineers time the traffic signals to have an orderly flow of traffic. The primary issue is, of course, is SAFETY. The flow of traffic traveling at the posted speed limit should be able to continue through the traffic signals without having to stop. But not here. If you drive on US 441/27 you are lucky if you can get through two traffic signals without stopping and I mean lucky. Most of the time, you will have to stop at every stinking light. We drove through Leesburg this morning and every….EVERY light caught us.

And, I have never experienced the left turn arrow as we have here. In most locations, other than the tri-counties, you may have a left turn arrow, which gives you total right of way against opposing traffic. When that turn arrow goes to caution (yellow) you know that your right of way against opposing traffic is about to cease and you need to prepare to stop. But, then after the caution light goes off, you have a green light….in most other locations; but you also have opposing traffic, so you have better wait until you have a break in traffic before your turn left. Here, in the tri-counties, the turn arrow goes to red and you sit and sit and sit, even though there may not be any traffic coming at you. And that’s compounded by some wonderful driver who will not pull out into the intersection so that they can turn left when the traffic has a gap or when the light turns red. AAAARRRRGGGG!!!

Another wonderful bit of timing frequently occurs and the intersection of Buenos Aries and Hwy 466. Those lights are so timed that there may be no traffic at all allowed through in any direction. Cars on 466 in both directions just sit. Traffic on Buenos Aires just sit. Ain’t nobody goin’ no where.

Now can somebody explain to this growly impatient pain in the #$$@ what is going on?

I realize that I can rationalize my feelings with the justification that all that idle time you are just sitting in your automobile is a terrible waste of gasoline, polluting the environment, but I admitted that I am impatient and I am, but my greatest area of impatience is stupidity. You can’t cure stupidity and the traffic controls around here are just stupid.

And….I might add….I love our seasonal neighbors, aka, Snow Birds. They are great people and make great friends and neighbors. It’s those other idiots that come down here and don’t know how to drive around The Villages that get on our nerves. The are arrogant, abusive, antagonistic, rude and just down right nasty and they give a bad name to our wonderful seasonal neighbors whom we love so dearly.

Incidentally, I do not moan and groan about “the developer” making money and increasing prices. They must make a profit. It’s their investment of time, money and resources and they damned sure should make a profit. Do you want to live in a community that was created and controlled by a bunch of idiots? If they didn’t make profits, they would go bankrupt and leave us high and dry to fend for ourselves. But the traffic around here stinks.:ohdear::ohdear::ohdear:
Compared to NY, the traffic here is great. But I do agree with much of what you said.

The problem with the left turn arrows is that the powers that be have played to the lowest common denominator of drivers. The intersection of both Morse and BV with 466A used to have a left arrow, followed by a flashing yellow left arrow for the rest of the cycle. About 2 years ago they changed it to a timed left arrow followed by red for the whole cycle. So now you sit there 2-3 minutes with no one coming if it is late enough at night. Why??? Because there were a bunch of accidents, probably by people who shouldn't be driving in the first place, so now everyone suffers.


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