Talk of The Villages Florida

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-   The Villages, Florida, General Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/)
-   -   Why no cement lining the paths south of 44? (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/why-no-cement-lining-paths-south-44-a-337158/)

JMintzer 12-05-2022 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsmurano (Post 2163461)
This is how propaganda starts, someone told someone told someone and now it’s true.
Before posting you should have 1st hand knowledge.
The paths in the south are much more thought out and look better than the paths north of 44. Down south here, we have curbs when needed. We don’t have grass growing in our paths, and all of our paths are made for golf carts, not like the paths north of 466a. If you go head on to a path after crossing issuing a street where the gates are north of 466a, there is a harsh dip, which you don’t have down south. How about the accid by waiting to happen path north of 466 where the golf carts share the road with Morse? We don’t have that here, we are off the major roads. (Did the county vote yet to get rid of the Morse golf cart path yet?).

Have you driven down to St Catherine? Golf carts most certainly DO share a major road (Meggison) with cars...

John Mayes 12-05-2022 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2163574)
Have you driven down to St Catherine? Golf carts most certainly DO share a major road (Meggison) with cars...

Actually, it’s Citrus Grove but you are correct. From the CG gate down through, at least Newall, the path is shared with Meggison. I assume it will be that all the way to 470 when finished.

Altavia 12-05-2022 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2163574)
Have you driven down to St Catherine? Golf carts most certainly DO share a major road (Meggison) with cars...

Looks like they switch to Diamond lanes, are they restricted for 2 lane roads?

VApeople 12-05-2022 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2163574)
Have you driven down to St Catherine? Golf carts most certainly DO share a major road (Meggison) with cars...

It is the same thing north of 44 on Moyer, Hillsborough, and Pinellas.

At least the walking path along Meggison is not as close to the road as the concrete sidewalks are north of 44.

Another good feature in the neighborhoods south of 44 as that dogs are not allowed at the postal stations and rec areas. Every time I go to our postal station in Osceola Hills, there are people walking thru the grass letting their dogs crap.

Laker14 12-05-2022 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2163443)
The lack of ribbon burning and the degradation of the MMPs was brought up 2 or maybe 3 years ago when I was serving on the PWAC. I expressed my concerns over the long term stability and costs for maintaining them. I made the point that the lack of ribbon curbing was such a concern north of 44 for the roads in the PV and CYV communities that the individual CDD ended up funding the installations in these communities. I questioned why they were not included and could we mandate that they be installed going forward.

District staff said they would investigate and get back to us…
Two responses were received:
1. They examined the MMP and didn’t find any significant degradation except in one area around Bradford where heavy trucks had damaged the path and their was being repaired. - A complete load of BS, before I made my comments at the PWAC meeting I had already ridden down miles of the MMPs and seen dozens of locations where there was degradation and encroachment of the grass into the surface, I had also spent the evening of the Water Lilly bridge movement over the turnpike at the Water Lilly RC area and saw numerous areas were the walking paths had started to degrade after only a few months. This has been, is, and will continue to be an issue with the walking and MMPs south of 44. Eventually, these paths will either have to be resurfaced/rebuilt and/or ribbon curbing installed to stabilize them like they are north of 44. Either way it will come at considerable expense to the residents.
2. The ribbon curbing was eliminated as a cost savings measure. There are many more miles of walking and MMPs in the areas south of 44 than elsewhere in our community. This is due to the geography of the area and the large number of wetlands areas that were preserved resulting in longer paths and the addition of miles walking paths throughout the newer areas. It was a trade off, more paths or ribbon curbing. Had the ribbon curbing been installed it would have had a significant impact on the bonds that were issued for construction. (The bonds south of 44 are consistent with those north of 44 on a $/acre to developer, once you account for time and inflation over the many years, you cannot compare the raw numbers without looking at the rising cost/acre caused by inflation. But I’ve had this discussion several times here so no more rehash.). The walking and MMPs meet the “state standards”, I however argued that they didn’t meet the long established, but unwritten, “Villages Standards” for these paths, so the ribbon curbing isn’t mandated, and therefore not installed. A business decision, good short term but bad long term for the residents.

Because of the wetlands areas and grasses that abut the walking and MMPs the need for the stabilization provided by the ribbon curbing is needed more so in the areas south of 44 than they are needed in the existing areas north of 44.

There is a lot of validity to their side of the argument, however it comes down to pay-me-now-or-pay-me-later; well it looks like “now” is the long anticipated “later”.

As the MMP maintenance falls under the PWA as common infrastructure, all the residents south of 466 will eventually have to foot the bill for the PWF costs of repairs/upgrades. This was one of the many discussion points and reasons why PWAC2 was so favored by all the signatories of the PWA, well almost all. When the bill comes due for this, as it will eventually, all of us north of 44 must be sure to thank the board of CDD7 for their efforts in railroading the agreement with false and misguided intentions and not even taking the time to vote on the new agreement. Sorry for this side track, but it is a valid point that needed to be said.

The real question at hand needs to be will the CDD 12 & 13 boards and PWAC take the necessary actions now, to “fix” this issue now or will these paths be left to fester, rot, and decay until someone gets injured and they are forced to take decisive action to upgrade, at a much higher cost. Let your voices be heard now or let your wallet be hurt later.

Once again, thank you, Don for taking the time to enlighten us with actual facts. I have a couple of questions from this part of your post:
"As the MMP maintenance falls under the PWA as common infrastructure, all the residents south of 466 will eventually have to foot the bill for the PWF costs of repairs/upgrades. "

I looked but couldn't find what PWF stands for. Sorry if I missed it in the post, but couldn't locate it.
And to be sure I understand correctly, ALL MMPs, including the newer ones fabricated without concrete ribbons, are under one entity when it comes to maintenance ? So, even though I live between 466 and 466A, when the newer, more cheaply constructed MMPs built south of 44 deteriorate to the point of requiring intervention, I will be among those who will be charged in order to finance the repairs. Is that correct?

Altavia 12-05-2022 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2163574)
Have you driven down to St Catherine? Golf carts most certainly DO share a major road (Meggison) with cars...

Also Marsh Bend Trail.

vintageogauge 12-05-2022 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenswing (Post 2163292)
It still baffles me why someone who doesn’t live south of 44, probably never visits south of 44 feels the need to bash everything south of 44 every chance he gets.

It might not be jealousy but it sure looks like some sort of personal insecurity.

I agree, is there anyone living down here complaining about the lack of "ribbons" I think not. I do know there is a lot of complaining about a new million dollar path that is too narrow to walk comfortably on but wait, that's north of 44 and those that are complaining live up there, those that live down here are not bashing it at all.

RCMill531@comcast.net 12-05-2022 07:34 PM

We love the beauty south of 44, including the golf paths.

coffeebean 12-05-2022 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fastskiguy (Post 2163567)
Yes

No. The paths are not fine. I spoke with my sister again today and she said she started to notice the grass growing into the asphalt pretty much right away after the paths were built. This is the reason she says the paths look awful now.

Goldwingnut 12-05-2022 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laker14 (Post 2163608)
Once again, thank you, Don for taking the time to enlighten us with actual facts. I have a couple of questions from this part of your post:
"As the MMP maintenance falls under the PWA as common infrastructure, all the residents south of 466 will eventually have to foot the bill for the PWF costs of repairs/upgrades. "

I looked but couldn't find what PWF stands for. Sorry if I missed it in the post, but couldn't locate it.
And to be sure I understand correctly, ALL MMPs, including the newer ones fabricated without concrete ribbons, are under one entity when it comes to maintenance ? So, even though I live between 466 and 466A, when the newer, more cheaply constructed MMPs built south of 44 deteriorate to the point of requiring intervention, I will be among those who will be charged in order to finance the repairs. Is that correct?

PWF - Project Wide Fund, it is the fund that all the members CDDs of the PWAC pay into from their respective maintenance assessments. These funds are combined and used to pay for the maintenance of the common areas. Things like cutting the grass and maintaining the storm water retention ponds. The Project Wide Agreement and its associated Project Wide Fund allow for substantial savings in contract and administrative costs by letting larger more comprehensive contracts and achieving economies of scale. Without the PWA/PWF each individual CDD would have to seek individual maintenance contracts. A few years ago while serving on the PWAC & CDD10 board, I did some digging, comparing, and calculating of the costs with and without the PWA in place, the results were that each member CDD is saving between 12% and 16% in their operating costs due to the PWA economies of scale and reduced administrative costs.

Regarding your second & third questions, the answer is Yes you will get to help pay for any of the upkeep costs, and you can thank CDD7's board for that privilege. Had they approved the 4th revision of the PWA, a PWAC2/PWA2 would have been formed south of 44 and that cost would have been carried by CDDs 12, 13, 14, and beyond and not the CDDs north of SR44. But of course, CDD7's chairman was smarter than the 42 other supervisors who approved of the new agreement and decided not to even allow it to be put it to a vote.

Worldseries27 12-06-2022 05:31 AM

Sensible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich1 (Post 2163210)
could be waiting for what they call , “wet prairie settling” it should be noticed within the next 3-5 years…

rome wasn't built in a day

crash 12-06-2022 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priebehouse (Post 2163213)
...you think they should have built the retail, streets and pathways first, then the homes? Not the best economic plan especially for the business owners. Like building a Costco in the middle of the Mojave Desert and thinking all will flock there. Give it a few years, it will all come around.chilout

The paths and streets are built first but why build retail first if the population would not support it. You have to have customers before any business would want to move their business there.

Where the businesses will be are on the plan and when demand is there they will build them. Look at Brownwood and how long it took to build that out v

Altavia 12-06-2022 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2163688)
Regarding your second & third questions, the answer is Yes you will get to help pay for any of the upkeep costs, and you can thank CDD7's board for that privilege. Had they approved the 4th revision of the PWA, a PWAC2/PWA2 would have been formed south of 44 and that cost would have been carried by CDDs 12, 13, 14, and beyond and not the CDDs north of SR44. But of course, CDD7's chairman was smarter than the 42 other supervisors who approved of the new agreement and decided not to even allow it to be put it to a vote.

Why is maintenance cost of new facilities higher than older?

Marathon Man 12-06-2022 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altavia (Post 2163753)
Why is maintenance cost of new facilities higher than older?

A presentation was given at each CDD board meeting explaining the reasons for the proposed formation of the PWAC2. Costs were explained. I was initially opposed to splitting the government structure. But, after seeing the presentation, I agreed with it.

Goldwingnut 12-06-2022 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altavia (Post 2163753)
Why is maintenance cost of new facilities higher than older?

On an apples to apples comparison, they are not and in fact may be lower because of newer materials, designs, and construction techniques. The costs of maintaining the older facilities has become lost to many as they have become long established and accepted costs, the newer facilities however as they begin to require maintenance get lots of attention as they are seen as “more money out of my pocket” when in fact these should be no different that existing costs. Do you get upset when you purchase a new car and then get upset when 4 months later you have to spend more money on it just to get an oil change? Facilities maintenance costs are no different, perhaps the biggest difference is the internet and social media, the many keyboard warriors that will raise a stink over every cost item in a budget without consideration of the facts and realities in their unbridled and uninformed rants in a vain attempt to try to raise their own social media status.

It the case of the waking trails and MMPs we are looking at an apples to oranges comparison. While both the curbed and uncurbed paths have the same function, they are constructed and will have to be maintained differently. Initial costs for the uncurbed paths is less as is the cost of replacing any given section on a linear foot basis due to the exclusion of the curbing. The curbed paths will undoubtedly have a longer and more stable useful life because of the curbing with a lower overall maintenance cost, but it comes at a higher initial price. The curbed paths however will have a higher replacement cost if a section need be replaced due to damage or other event.

Both curbed and uncurbed paths meet all state standards. The Villages had previously established a higher “Villages standard” of using a curbed path that under the new design criteria of the areas south of SR44 is obviously no longer economically sustainable and is now defaulting back to the state standards. The “I hate the developer” crowd will say that this is just about greed as they alway do, no, this is about business and the realities of dealing with the costs involved with construction and how the scale of even what seems like small things can have a significant impact. This all comes down to pay-me-now-or-pay-me-later, either way nothing is free and only one entity ever pays for anything, it’s not government or businesses, it is the one who ultimately benefits that must pay, the consumer.

jedalton 12-06-2022 08:23 AM

is there a website setup to report model paths that need repair?

Bogie Shooter 12-06-2022 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedalton (Post 2163782)
is there a website setup to report model paths that need repair?

VCDD District Property Management

The Chipster 12-06-2022 08:51 AM

Sorry to be a nit-picker, but the engineer inside of me compels me to point out that you are speaking of "CONCRETE", not cement (which is part of concrete). I know, I know . . .

rustyp 12-06-2022 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Chipster (Post 2163793)
Sorry to be a nit-picker, but the engineer inside of me compels me to point out that you are speaking of "CONCRETE", not cement (which is part of concrete). I know, I know . . .

RU sure ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3c9upXVQ0M

Babber 12-06-2022 10:02 AM

Another overlooked problem of the lack of "ribbons" is safety. I recently drove through the area on a early very foggy morning, The "ribbons" act as a guidance to stay on the path. Without the "ribbons" there is no outside guidance. The very least that should be done is apply the white striping on the exterior perimeters of the roadbed.

JP 12-06-2022 10:06 AM

I think the golf cart paths(and roads, and front yards, etc)south of 44 are dangerously more narrow.

kendi 12-06-2022 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coffeebean (Post 2163194)
Our MM Paths north of 44 have cement "ribbons" lining each side of the paths. This cement prevents the grass from invading the asphalt and gives the landscapers a sharp edge to keep the grass edged.

I personally have not driven on the cart paths south of 44 but my sister routinely takes a ride in her golf cart on Sundays south of 44. She has noticed that the paths down south do not have the cement "ribbon" along the sides of the asphalt. Without this ribbon of cement, the grass has invaded the asphalt and she told me those paths look awful.

Infrastructure on the cheap is what is happening down south. Too bad.

I have not seen any awful looking paths South of 44. Why does it matter to you anyway if you’ve never been? Just another chance to complain I suppose.

JMintzer 12-06-2022 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendi (Post 2163815)
I have not seen any awful looking paths South of 44. Why does it matter to you anyway if you’ve never been? Just another chance to complain I suppose.

Appears that the sister doesn't live there, either...

Altavia 12-06-2022 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2163781)

It the case of the waking trails and MMPs we are looking at an apples to oranges comparison. While both the curbed and uncurbed paths have the same function, they are constructed and will have to be maintained differently. Initial costs for the uncurbed paths is less as is the cost of replacing any given section on a linear foot basis due to the exclusion of the curbing. The curbed paths will undoubtedly have a longer and more stable useful life because of the curbing with a lower overall maintenance cost, but it comes at a higher initial price. The curbed paths however will have a higher replacement cost if a section need be replaced due to damage or other event.

.

Understood, the Water Tower designed to last just ten years came with an interesting explaination.

https://www.districtgov.org/PdfUploa...%205.19.22.pdf


I know why residents of more established areas might not want to share in the cost of maintaining/upgrading new paths constructed to minimum standards in the south.

But everyone can use the paths and the beautiful trails down here that attract many from the older legacy areas of the Villages.

This will be more so as the new Lifestyle Center and multiple golf courses area completed.

I'll point out also the older areas of The Villages are benefiting from relatively lower property taxes given the inflation in prices for the newer homes. A new home buyer could be paying more than double the property tax of a similar home purchased more than 10 (maybe 5) years ago - that's life.

rustyp 12-06-2022 11:50 AM

Did you ever own a blacktop drive with no edge protection such as concrete curbing or gravel shoulder ? Was that drive narrow enough that your car was parked close to the edge ? End result cracking and crumbling - guaranteed. Looks like - well you know what. Ever try to patch it ? How did that look ? Those MMPs get cart pressure on the edges all day long. They will fail. I have already observed this on those paths. If those paths have not been transferred from the developer to the CDDs contact your rep and insist considering not to accept possession without resolution or a maintenance agreement.

tophcfa 12-06-2022 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altavia (Post 2163852)
I'll point out also the older areas of The Villages are benefiting from relatively lower property taxes given the inflation in prices for the newer homes. A new home buyer could be paying more than double the property tax of a similar home purchased more than 10 (maybe 5) years ago - that's life.

Apparently you are not aware of the 25% property tax increase to Sumpter County homeowners that was necessitated by the infrastructure needs created by all the newer homes referenced in your post. Also, you apparently are not aware that all homes in Sumter County, regardless of when they were purchased, were recently reassessed to reflect current market values for tax calculations.

tuccillo 12-06-2022 04:11 PM

Properties are reassessed each year anyway. If you are homesteaded, there is a limit to how much the assessed value can increase because of the Save Our Homes law (about 3% or the CPI, whichever is lower). If you are homesteaded, the market value is not what your taxes are based on. They are based on the assessed value. Some of the 25% tax increase has been reduced the last 2 years. Also, the 25% increase was on the County Tax only, not the School Tax or the line items for fire and maintenance. The net effect was more like a total of about a 12% increase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 2163895)
Apparently you are not aware of the 25% property tax increase to Sumpter County homeowners that was necessitated by the infrastructure needs created by all the newer homes referenced in your post. Also, you apparently are not aware that all homes in Sumter County, regardless of when they were purchased, were recently reassessed to reflect current market values for tax calculations.


VApeople 12-06-2022 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 2163895)
Apparently you are not aware of the 25% property tax increase to Sumpter County homeowners

No, we are not aware of that tax increase. Our property tax was less than last year.

Altavia 12-06-2022 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coffeebean (Post 2163194)
Our MM Paths north of 44 have cement "ribbons" lining each side of the paths. This cement prevents the grass from invading the asphalt and gives the landscapers a sharp edge to keep the grass edged.

I personally have not driven on the cart paths south of 44 but my sister routinely takes a ride in her golf cart on Sundays south of 44. She has noticed that the paths down south do not have the cement "ribbon" along the sides of the asphalt. Without this ribbon of cement, the grass has invaded the asphalt and she told me those paths look awful.

Infrastructure on the cheap is what is happening down south. Too bad.

Never paid attention, but at least the path from Monarch Grove to Everglades to the Turnpike bridge to has curbing..

Altavia 12-06-2022 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VApeople (Post 2163920)
No, we are not aware of that tax increase. Our property tax was less than last year.

Thanks to the county investing in infrastructure that creates thousands of jobs and results in adding over two billion dollars of new homes each year to the tax base which keeps taxes low for all.

VApeople 12-06-2022 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altavia (Post 2163962)
Thanks to the country investing in infrastructure that creates thousands of jobs and results in adding over two billion dollars of new homes each year to the tax base which keeps taxes low for all.

Yeah, if you say so. We don't think that deeply.

bobeaston 12-07-2022 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2163840)
Appears that the sister doesn't live there, either...

It is very interesting how much of a hornets' nest can be stirred up by someone citing a second hand account of something that "looks terrible." Here we are, on page 8 of commentary because of something the original poster hasn't actually seen. Amazing.

Normal 12-07-2022 06:29 AM

Hater Post
 
Just another, “Hate everything south of 44” post…lol. Turnpike noises, new changes etc…

Rheimer 12-07-2022 06:39 AM

We will be paying for the repairs down south here sooner than later with all the people parking in the grass every day/night at Sawgrass Grove. There is plenty of parking in the parking lot. Drive by some evening and you will see the parking lot for golf carts is empty and the parking in the grass off the MM path in front of Sawgrass will be full. This is going to lead to grass replacement and repaving of the MM path as the edges of the path deteriorate. Don Wiley hit it right on the head in his last video as to the reason people are parking there. Keep up the great work Don.

GizmoWhiskers 12-07-2022 07:28 AM

Excellent info!

eyc234 12-07-2022 07:58 AM

:shocked: Just noticed on much of Buena Vista there is no cement curbing. The grass is not growing over like a jungle and the side of the roadway seems to be in good shape. Just asking if this is really a big issue. I would guess that both Buena Vista and Morse Blvd both are much more traveled by vehicles than any MM path. Is this just another false issue for some to complain about like striping the MM path so people can see but they have no issue driving on streets that are not striped on the sides or striped at all in neighborhoods. The issue of grass growing over path in the picture is an issue that should be brought up to the landscaping crews.

VApeople 12-07-2022 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altavia (Post 2163956)
the path from Monarch Grove to Everglades to the Turnpike bridge to has curbing..

Yeah, and I hate it!

My wife and I often walk around Hogeye Sink, which means we have to walk along that section of the MMP. We walk single file and facing oncoming golf cart traffic, and we get off the MMP when golf carts come along. That means we have to step over the hated concrete curb and, since my balance is not too good, I am always afraid of tripping on it.

Bill14564 12-07-2022 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VApeople (Post 2164063)
Yeah, and I hate it!

My wife and I often walk around Hogeye Sink, which means we have to walk along that section of the MMP. We walk single file and facing oncoming golf cart traffic, and we get off the MMP when golf carts come along. That means we have to step over the hated concrete curb and, since my balance is not too good, I am always afraid of tripping on it.

Where along the MMP, specifically, is the concrete curbing raised above the level of the blacktop? Except for tunnels and roundabouts, all the MMP ribbon I can remember is flush with the surface.

coffeebean 12-07-2022 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VApeople (Post 2164063)
Yeah, and I hate it!

My wife and I often walk around Hogeye Sink, which means we have to walk along that section of the MMP. We walk single file and facing oncoming golf cart traffic, and we get off the MMP when golf carts come along. That means we have to step over the hated concrete curb and, since my balance is not too good, I am always afraid of tripping on it.

The issue I brought up in my original post is not about curbs that are higher than the asphalt. My original issue is with the concrete ribbon that lines the paths on both sides. Those ribbons are the same height as the asphalt. It is there to protect the asphalt from degrading and breaking off. It is also nice to have so the landscapers can keep a nice sharp edge along the paths.

VApeople 12-07-2022 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill14564 (Post 2164079)
Where along the MMP, specifically, is the concrete curbing raised above the level of the blacktop?

Since you are riding in a golf cart, you may not see the places where the concrete curbing is not exactly even with the blacktop. It doesn't take much of a difference to make me trip.


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