[K9-Lovers]

Originally Posted by Barefoot

But obviously times are changing!

In my opinion, times are a changin' for the better!

[Tbugs]

SkyGuy,

I have seen some individuals on powered chairs, etc at both squares. They seem to have a good time. Hope to see you someday at one of the squares.

Have you run over a dog with your chair or scooter in a crowd? I would hate to do that and I bet you were plenty shocked if that happened to you. Dog bites are another matter, too. I have not seen a dog go after a power chair or scooter but it sounds as though it has happened to you. I can understand your apprehension of being around dogs after getting bitten while on your power chair. Hope you healed up and the medical bills were taken care of by the dog's owner.

On that same matter (not the biting), it would be very easy to run a power chair into or over the feet of a child who was running around unsupervised. Can you imagine the reaction of the parent or grandparent to the scooter operator?

A dog at the square will be on a leash and not running around unsupervised. I am not against bringing children to the entertainment - things do go wrong sometimes when the children are not closely supervised.

SkyGuy, hope everything goes good with you and that you will enjoy the squares and the entertainment.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by skyguy79

[*]On a scooter, the user needs to backup sometimes and must do so because they are blocked from moving forward. In backing up there is a blind spot area behind them. If the driver of the scooter backs up thinking all's clear and hits and injures a dog, and assuming it's a busy day, is it the scooter operators fault the dog was hit or is it the fault of the dogs owner for bringing the pet into a busy area where the chance of this is greater than when it's not busy?

Skyguy, I do understand your concerns, I really do. But I just have to ask a question. You said that in backing up there is a blind spot behind a scooter and you could potentially hit a dog. Is there a potential for also hitting a small child? I'm assuming you have some kind of beeping back-up sound, and that people would make sure they give you a clear space to back up.

[K9-Lovers]

Skyguy, if you can't see behind you, lots of things could happen. In fact, you could injure yourself. Why not invest in a rearview mirror for your motorized chair?

[katezbox]

SkyGuy's posts remind me of something we learned when Finley was in Puppy Obedience. The instructor - who has amazing skills with dogs - pointed out to us that doggy behavior can be situational. For example, just because a dog has a perfect response to recall in your house or yard, don't assume the same will happen in a place with more distractions.

She also encouraged us to take our puppies (on a short, loose leash) to places where they would meet people with walkers, in wheel chairs, on Rollerblades etc. This way the puppy would learn not to be afraid and not to misbehave in those situations.

[Jhooman]

Hey SkyGuy,

It's time for the posse to come to your aid. When I get to the TV, you give me a call and I'll be your personal guide, I'll have my squirt gun loaded or better yet, I'll borrow Redwitch's bazooka water missile. If dog or human steps in your way, they will be blown away with a doze of water, they will never be the same.

All kidding aside, it's tough being in a chair and hopefully the gracious people of TV are considerate. The times I've been to the squares, people are cool until they start dancing and we start sweating, now that's a different matter.

God bless you SkyGuy and seriously when I get there I'm picking your rear up and we are hitting the squares.

[skyguy79]

Originally Posted by Tbugs

Have you run over a dog with your chair or scooter in a crowd?

No! Not having happened to me personally doesn't mean it can't or doesn't happen.

On that same matter (not the biting), it would be very easy to run a power chair into or over the feet of a child who was running around unsupervised. Can you imagine the reaction of the parent or grandparent to the scooter operator?

Having had 7 years of experience driving a mobility scooter I have to disagree with the idea that it would be very easy to run over a child's feet. I would however say that it's highly unlikely unless the operator is so self-centered and they don't care if anyone's in their way. Besides, the child is pretty much visible even if they are running by the back of my scooter. The movement can be detected by perferal vision. Besides, I don't back up that fast or that carelessly and a child doing this would be highly likely to be out of my path by the time I did back up!

Also, I could imagine the reaction of the parent or grandparent. In situations like that many people don't want to accept or admit their share of the responsibility for what happened and try to deflect all the blame on others when that opportunity avails itself!

Originally Posted by Barefoot

Skyguy, I do understand your concerns, I really do. But I just have to ask a question. You said that in backing up there is a blind spot behind a scooter and you could potentially hit a dog. Is there a potential for also hitting a small child?

Maybe an insignificant one because a child is not usually as short as a small dog and if they were they would be tottlers. I couldn't imagine a parent or guardian being irresponsible enough to allow a tottler to crawl around on the ground of a crowded area and not be holding them or having them in a carrier of some sort. But, it could happen even though it's much less likely than with a dog!


I can also say that when it's me backing up, I take it slow and as carefully as I'm able to do and would most likely not injure the child or pet behind me, but I can say that it would be that way for others! If you can't buy that idea, just look at how operators of cars,trucks and golf carts drive their vehicles; some drive forward and backup slowly and carefully, then there are those that go in either direction like a bat out of h***! I live on a cul de sac in TV and even there, I witnessed it happing from my den just about every day before I headed back north for the summer!

I'm assuming you have some kind of beeping back-up sound, and that people would make sure they give you a clear space to back up.

No! I've never seen a mobility scooter or wheel chair that is equipped with a backup warning beeper. Scooters do have a horn but I've found the sound they produce usually cannot be heard over existing sound levels by those that you are trying to get attention from; sometime it's even true when things are quiet. Frequently, others that are with those individuals that can see me usually grab them gently by the arm and prompt them to move out of the way. All this is not saying that backup warning beepers don't exist, but I've never seen or heard of one!

I also want to add here that people are pretty good in their consideration of someone in my situation. I can't even remember an instant where they were not, even with my forgetfulness!

Originally Posted by K9-Lovers

Why not invest in a rearview mirror for your motorized chair?

I have a mirror on one of my two scooters, but that mirror can see even less of the blind spot because either my arm and/or body blocks the view.

I think I've answered all your questions in red within the quotes because of multiple questions. But now that I have answered those questions, I must say that I find it interesting that no one answered any of mine! True I said you didn't have to, but I wonder why no one did. Anyway, don't bother to do so now.

Instead please answer these questions: Why is it so important that people bring their pets to the squares when it busy? Do they have to have the company or companionship of their presence 24/7 and if so why? Can't they enjoy the squares without them? Is having them there more important (or even anywhere close to it) than the safety of people in my situation and condition? I can't imagine it being so! And I don't want to hear about comparing the bring of children. I'm not talking about children; I'm talking about dogs! I also remind all that I'm NOT talking about times when the squares are quiet, but rather when the squares are BUSY!

If these questions can't be answered, then I'm afraid I'll have to rethink my opinion that pets should be allowed at the squares, at least during busy times, because it will then appear that people are espousing a position of entitlement by putting the pleasure of some over the safety of others!

[JeffBorn]

Folks we all have likes and dislikes and that will never change. A few of the dangers in the scenarios recently expressed are possible but not probable. Much of the discussion in my opinion falls under the category "If you expect to be offended you will rarely be disappointed". I've been following the various anti dog discussions as well as many others for the several months I have been a member of TOTV. I must say that as owner's of two <5lb chiuahahs my wife and I have a heightened awareness when visiting the squares. I do not let my dogs near grassy areas or linger near the shrubbery. We come prepared for eventualities should they occur, but thankfully do not because we walk the dogs prior. When we are in a crowded area my wife and I each carry one of the dogs to protect them from unknowing feet. People for the most part seem to be so pleased to see our dogs that it is a joy to see their smiles. When my children were young I would occasionally encounter individuals that were less than pleased that they were seated in a restaurant next my young family. I made no apologies for letting my children enjoy what life has to offer and I will not apolpogize for enjoying my dogs in public. We look forward to moving into our newly completed home next week and if you see an atttractive redhead with two little dogs I'll be the guy with her and yes you can pet our dogs.

[skyguy79]

Originally Posted by Jhooman

Hey SkyGuy,

It's time for the posse to come to your aid. When I get to the TV, you give me a call and I'll be your personal guide, I'll have my squirt gun loaded or better yet, I'll borrow Redwitch's bazooka water missile. If dog or human steps in your way, they will be blown away with a doze of water, they will never be the same.

All kidding aside, it's tough being in a chair and hopefully the gracious people of TV are considerate. The times I've been to the squares, people are cool until they start dancing and we start sweating, now that's a different matter.

God bless you SkyGuy and seriously when I get there I'm picking your rear up and we are hitting the squares.

Thanks for responding J, but I do want to make one thing clear. I'm not in a chair and don't want to give anyone a false impression that I am. My situation is that I cannot walk very far, but I can walk. In the house usually without assistance until I tire later in the day or feeling weak... then the cane; from the curb in front of a restaurant or some handicapped parking spaces, again the cane or maybe the scooter. Anythng further either I don't go there or I drop the power ramp and unload my scooter from my mobility equipped Uplander. The squares are definitely scooter land to me!

BTW, when you see me I can garantee that you won't be picking me up... if you cherish your back that is!

[Tbugs]

Well, SkyGuy, I thought I was actually being compassionate when I stated I had seen people in power chairs or scooters at the squares and hoped to see you there sometime. It was in that same line of thinking that I said I understood your feelings when you were bitten by a dog who attacked your power scooter - but that seems like you were making a hypothetical example of what could happen.

From what I have seen in the 19 months I have lived in The Villages, residents and visitors love their dogs. Dogs are walking with their owners, riding in golf carts, and being shown off in the squares. This is part of what goes on here. SkyGuy, go with the flow, be careful, and have a good time at the town squares. Hope to meet you sometime.

[K9-Lovers]

Let me try to explain why people want to take their dogs with them everywhere.

Your dog shows you a reflection of the best part of yourself. The part of you that you wish everyone could see and acknowledge.

When you spend time with a dog who knows you well, and whom you know well, there is a strong connection between the two of you. The two of you can communicate with each other with a quick glance, with the sound of your breath, or the tap of a finger or paw. It is a language only you two share.

When your dog is having fun, you can feel it in your heart. It is very fulfilling to bring joy and pleasure to a dog, because they express their feelings so openly.

Most dogs like meeting new people and other dogs because they are very social beings and love interaction.

If a dog loves you, there is no place they would rather be than with you. And seeing their disappointment when they know you are leaving them behind tugs at your heart.

If these are things you don't understand, or cannot comprehend, then you might consider spending time getting to really know the heart, emotions and intelligent mind of a dog. Until that connection is something you have experienced, it will be impossible for you to understand.

[skyguy79]

Originally Posted by Tbugs

Well, SkyGuy, I thought I was actually being compassionate when I stated I had seen people in power chairs or scooters at the squares and hoped to see you there sometime. It was in that same line of thinking that I said I understood your feelings when you were bitten by a dog who attacked your power scooter - but that seems like you were making a hypothetical example of what could happen.

From what I have seen in the 19 months I have lived in The Villages, residents and visitors love their dogs. Dogs are walking with their owners, riding in golf carts, and being shown off in the squares. This is part of what goes on here. SkyGuy, go with the flow, be careful, and have a good time at the town squares. Hope to meet you sometime.

I'm not looking for compassion nor have I EVER stated that I was attacked or bitten, but you're right that what I mentioned could happen was hypthetical, at least for me anyway.

But hypthetical does not mean that it couldn't happen. Many things in life are hypothetical until they happen, and if getting bit did happen to me, having been hypothetical beforehand wouldn't mean that I wouldn't be going through what I've explained two times already. As for the rest of what you stated, I have no problem with it what-so-ever! I am chilled and I do go with the flow, but as for when the squares are too crowded... well, do I really have to repeat it yet again?

BTW, I'm STILL waiting for someone, anyone to answer any of the questions I've asked.

[K9-Lovers]

Okay Skyguy, I'll give it a go.

1. Tbugs: Have you seen another at the squares using a mobility scooter? Just a yes or no will do.

I'm not Tbugs, but YES I have seen others at the squares using mobility scooters.

2. On a scooter, the user needs to backup sometimes and must do so because they are blocked from moving forward. In backing up there is a blind spot area behind them. If the driver of the scooter backs up thinking all's clear and hits and injures a dog, and assuming it's a busy day, is it the scooter operators fault the dog was hit or is it the fault of the dogs owner for bringing the pet into a busy area where the chance of this is greater than when it's not busy?

Depending on the circumstance, it could be the fault of either. If the scooter operator moved backwards slowly, and if the dog was on a long leash and therefore not fully under control of the owner, it would be the dog owner's fault. However, if the scooter operator knowing that it was a very crowded area, moved quickly without first checking peripheral vision, and backed into a dog that was standing closely to its owners feet, then I would say it is the scooter owner who is at fault.

All that said, a scooter backing over a dog is highly unlikely because a dog's hearing (unless it is deaf and old) is far superior to a human's. Therefore the dog would hear the motor no matter how silent we think it is and quickly move out of the way. A dog is also very aware of their surroundings and any movement, as they are either hunters or prey, and would quickly notice the movement and scoot out of the way. More likely, the scooter operator would back over a small child before backing over a dog because of these reasons.

3. If the dog reacts to the scooter like they sometimes naturally do with autos and winds up biting my leg sending me into months of pain and suffering, (my legs won't heal anywheres near as quick as it would for most people) is it my fault for wanting to enjoy the square like everyone else, or is it the fault of the dogs owner for either bringing the dog into a crowded area or not having it under proper control?

Most dogs chase cars and bicycles because they go fast, and the instinct to chase prey is activated. Scooters don't go fast enough to activate that instinct. Especially if the square is crowded, I doubt a scooter operator would be driving full speed. Also, dogs are required to be leashed, and by the time the dog was ready to chase, they would reach the end of their leash. Therefore, by the time the scooter built up enough speed to activate a chase, the length of the leash would keep the dog from chasing and/or biting.

4. Should I deny myself the use of the square just because of the above situations I've stated?

No. The situations you've described are highly improbable. Use the squares without a second thought to those scenarios.

[skyguy79]

Originally Posted by K9-Lovers

Let me try to explain why people want to take their dogs with them everywhere.

Your dog shows you a reflection of the best part of yourself. The part of you that you wish everyone could see and acknowledge.

When you spend time with a dog who knows you well, and whom you know well, there is a strong connection between the two of you. The two of you can communicate with each other with a quick glance, with the sound of your breath, or the tap of a finger or paw. It is a language only you two share.

When your dog is having fun, you can feel it in your heart. It is very fulfilling to bring joy and pleasure to a dog, because they express their feelings so openly.

Most dogs like meeting new people and other dogs because they are very social beings and love interaction.

If a dog loves you, there is no place they would rather be than with you. And seeing their disappointment when they know you are leaving them behind tugs at your heart.

If these are things you don't understand, or cannot comprehend, then you might consider spending time getting to really know the heart, emotions and intelligent mind of a dog. Until that connection is something you have experienced, it will be impossible for you to understand.

Thank K9 for finally being the one to provide me with some answers. I can't however accept that all these reasons justifies that 24/7 companionship is necessary. Have you ever gone to a restaurant where health laws probit bringing a dog in, have you ever gone to a doctor's appointment without your dogs company, did you ever serve jury duty and were allowed to bring your dog, have you ever had job that wouldn't allow you to bring pets to work? I could go on, but think I've made my point.

As for the sentence I've highlited above I can understand and comprehend things you speak of. You seemingly however make an assumption that there is a good chance that I've never had a dog or been emotionally attached or made a connection to one!

As kid my father never allowed me to have a dog, but since I was married in 1967 we have had five (5) dogs and I would have never-ever considered bringing any of them to a venu like the squares if it was crowded.

Our last dog, Sheena of Albany Co. (adopted with papers) was a beautiful and lovable German Shepherd that was gentle and would never hurt a fly; well maybe one person she didn't like and neither did we that much.

Sheena died in 1999 and we decided not to get another dog because we both realized that we both reached a point where we could no longer take proper care of a dog.

[K9-Lovers]

Originally Posted by skyguy79

Thank K9 for finally being the one to provide me with some answers. I can't however accept that all these reasons justifies that 24/7 companionship is necessary. Have you ever gone to a restaurant where health laws probit bringing a dog in, have you ever gone to a doctor's appointment without your dogs company, did you ever serve jury duty and were allowed to bring your dog, have you ever had job that wouldn't allow you to bring pets to work? I could go on, but think I've made my point.

As for the sentence I've highlited above I can understand and comprehend things you speak of. You seemingly however make an assumption that there is a good chance that I've never had a dog or been emotionally attached or made a connection to one!

As kid my father never allowed me to have a dog, but since I was married in 1967 we have had five (5) dogs and I would have never-ever considered bringing any of them to a venu like the squares if it was crowded.

Our last dog, Sheena of Albany Co. (adopted with papers) was a beautiful and lovable German Shepherd that was gentle and would never hurt a fly; well maybe one person she didn't like and neither did we that much.

Sheena died in 1999 and we decided not to get another dog because we both realized that we both reached a point where we could no longer take proper care of a dog.

Hi Skyguy. I'm glad that my post answers some questions for you, but my post was not intended solely for you.

It was intended for all readers who may not understand why dog owners want to be with their dogs.

Yes, of course all dog owners must spend time away from their canine companions. I never said that dog owners want to spend 100% of their time 24/7 with their dogs. That was not my point.

The point of my post is to explain WHY dog owners like spending time with their canine companions.