[CFrance]

Originally Posted by Rags123

They are called NO GO ZONES. The entire story concerns me because I think, and this is me, that the trend is coming here in a fashion and sort of how it came to these countries.

First,

"PARIS -- Violent crime can happen anywhere and to anyone and for many reasons, but in Muslim-controlled parts of France, it has become especially dangerous to be white.

Surveillance camera video shows white French being beaten up by predominantly Muslim immigrant gangs in the Metro and on the street.

Islamic immigrants consider it their territory and whites enter at their own risk. The French call them "sensitive urban zones" -- no-go zones where the police don't enter or don't enforce the law.

Some call them little Muslim caliphates inside the borders of France.

"And it's like that because these parts of the country are in the hands of drug traffickers, gangs and imams [Islamic leaders]," French commentator Guy Milliere explained.

Native French under Attack in Muslim Areas - World - CBN News - Christian News 24-7 - CBN.com

"The French government has announced a plan to boost policing in 15 of the most crime-ridden parts of France in an effort to reassert state control over the country's so-called "no-go" zones: Muslim-dominated neighborhoods that are largely off limits to non-Muslims."

France Seeks to Reclaim 'No-Go' Zones | EuropeNews

It is not restricted to France either.

This is from Australia...

"The federal government’s intention to make it a crime for Australians to travel to “no-go zones” appears to be unprecedented among western democracies, according to terrorism experts, with countries such as Britain, Canada and France choosing not to go that far.

In the UK, the prime minister, David Cameron, recently unveiled a package of new anti-terrorism measures to counter the threat of British citizens fighting with Islamic State (Isis) and returning home to potentially plan domestic attacks."

No-go travel zones unprecedented among western democracies | Australia news | The Guardian

These zones also exist in Belguim, Sweden and a number of other countries, including the UK. Similar to those that existed in Rhodesia, South Africa and Northen Ireland

I really have a fear because in our country, that is the way we seem to be going.

I am a big believer in LAW...ONE LAW...not two or three. As I said in my earlier post, I have seen this in Tampa, obviously to a smaller scale, and the recent protests AGAINST police presences in certain areas just raised my antennae !

Also because of your background, you may "enjoy" this video on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIy8snQrpYU

As to the first part, concerning no-go zones in Paris, we viewed those outer suburbs as places we wouldn't go under any circumstances, the same way we would not go into certain ghetto areas in NYC or even Grand Rapids, MI. I don't think there were laws restricting travel there back then (2009/2010), but what law-abiding citizen would want to? I do not remember hearing big stories of a lawless society in those suburbs but we were pretty much limited to watching the news channel France 24 in English, as our French is not very sophisticated.

I am going to look more into the Australian no-go law. Thanks for pointing that out. Our son and DIL have been living there since 2007. So far their opinion of the attacks there is that they have been "in house," i.e., mentally unstable, lone-working, non-connected violent people who are using the terrorist label, and the media has been feeding a frenzy. On the other hand, he's cannot exactly be relied on to tell his mother the truth of what is going on when she is worrying about his safety.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by CFrance

As to the first part, concerning no-go zones in Paris, we viewed those outer suburbs as places we wouldn't go under any circumstances, the same way we would not go into certain ghetto areas in NYC or even Grand Rapids, MI. I don't think there were laws restricting travel there back then (2009/2010), but what law-abiding citizen would want to? I do not remember hearing big stories of a lawless society in those suburbs but we were pretty much limited to watching the news channel France 24 in English, as our French is not very sophisticated.

I am going to look more into the Australian no-go law. Thanks for pointing that out. Our son and DIL have been living there since 2007. So far their opinion of the attacks there is that they have been "in house," i.e., mentally unstable, lone-working, non-connected violent people who are using the terrorist label, and the media has been feeding a frenzy. On the other hand, he's cannot exactly be relied on to tell his mother the truth of what is going on when she is worrying about his safety.

Thanks for your response. I was interested in your views as someone who was there because it staggers me as I research this.

The birth of these no go zones can be seen in the USA as we speak. I KNOW there are areas already in this country where the police just will not go to enforce the law and that is scary and can only build. These zones whether racial, religious or whatever threaten us at the base.

I need to get more information and read on this, because as I read what is happening, I can see it in our country developing.

Keep us posted on what your son reports

[tomwed]

Why would a profit making magazine have to pay to defend itself ...moreso than a government magazine or a nonprofit???

The more they insulted Muslims the more they sold issues. It's wrong to kill under any circumstances. I'm not defending the act. They are not the victims. The magazine also insulted Christians just as well but probably knew it would not be as dangerous. It's not hard to find the cartoons. It's very raw. They have a right to insult anyone. But do they have a right to ask for all that is needed from the public for protection? I feel very sorry for all who died over a cartoon.

And I could be all wrong. I usually stay away from this type of thread.

The cartoons are about as funny as Mad magazine. I can understand if the magazine was hoping to improve the life of it's citizens like Dickens did or Thomas Paine did. I think they just want to make money.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by Rags123

Thanks for your response. I was interested in your views as someone who was there because it staggers me as I research this.

The birth of these no go zones can be seen in the USA as we speak. I KNOW there are areas already in this country where the police just will not go to enforce the law and that is scary and can only build. These zones whether racial, religious or whatever threaten us at the base.

I need to get more information and read on this, because as I read what is happening, I can see it in our country developing.

Keep us posted on what your son reports

Rags, you are jogging my memory. When we were living in north Jersey in 1980s, it was a known fact that there were parts of NYC where the police simply wouldn't go. It just wasn't a published fact.

I know what my son will say about Australia and safety. But I will ask him about the law.

France became an immigration utopia after WWII, with the majority of immigrants centering around Paris and other big cities. There is a lot of violence in these outer suburbs, much poverty, and the authorities don't have a handle on it. That much we saw while there.

[blueash]

Charlie Hebdo killings condemned by Arab states

Early in this thread there was a call for condemnation from Islamic nations.
If you look you will find similar condemnations from both American and international non- jihadist Muslims to similar past events.
While this particular act like those in the past is indefensible, it is worth remembering that the huge percentage of jihadist killing is being done not against Western targets but rather within the Sunni vs Shia conflict and the assault of fundamentalists against more liberal Muslims in their own countries. Sort of like the Catholics spent a couple centuries killing the Protestants and vice versa.

I am proud that our country, with a few exceptions, has done a good job of protecting free speech, and that means even offensive free speech. That means that the Nazis can march in Skokie, that means that Mapplethorpe can produce art that might offend many. All part of that old "I detest what you write but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write..." from Voltaire, ironically a Frenchman.





Does anyone actually think that anyone in the middle east cares what an American Muslim group or individual says about this issue? Or for that matter what the King of Saudi Arabia says?

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by tomwed

Why would a profit making magazine have to pay to defend itself ...moreso than a government magazine or a nonprofit???

The more they insulted Muslims the more they sold issues. It's wrong to kill under any circumstances. I'm not defending the act. They are not the victims. The magazine also insulted Christians just as well but probably knew it would not be as dangerous. It's not hard to find the cartoons. It's very raw. They have a right to insult anyone. But do they have a right to ask for all that is needed from the public for protection? I feel very sorry for all who died over a cartoon.

And I could be all wrong. I usually stay away from this type of thread.

The cartoons are about as funny as Mad magazine. I can understand if the magazine was hoping to improve the life of it's citizens like Dickens did or Thomas Paine did. I think they just want to make money.

Tom, I am NOT defending people making fun or being critical or hurting others about their religion. When the gooney pastor here in Florida burnt the copy of the Quran I thought that is just plain wrong. Someone is likely to kill you. You are gonna bring trouble to all of us and what are you accomplishing??? I was mad when someone said something about the Virgin Mary on this forum that was a very not nice joke. I get it.

But murdering someone sets an entirely different bar.

I don't care how devout you are, someone, sometime is gonna say something about your God, your wife or your kid, your house or your shirt. We don't kill people over it. Everyone needs to be protected against that kind of extremism.

That is why I am afraid of Muslim extremists. We all should be wary.

The magazine was way too much for me. I am not defending it's tone or it's taste or agreeing with it.

They not only insulted Muslims. Apparently they insulted everyone; the French President, our president etc. etc. In the link someone posted, there was a picture of Barack Obama and a large rabbit next to each other, lampooning the presidents ears.

The Today show showed one of the four cartoons. It was the prophet kneeling with a man in an Isis uniform with a knife at his throat and the prophet saying. I am God, you idiot.

[senior citizen]

Originally Posted by onslowe

Tip toeing around religious extremists with a 7th century value system of life and death is going to lead to Western Civilization's decline. Please someone look at how Christian North Africa and the entire Levant was essentially erased. Back when history was still taught in the schools, did anyone come across Charles Martel? What about real and intellectually honest reasons for the Crusades? And on and on. Not 'politically correct' but true - as in honest.

Should we be "sensitive" to those religionists who are over sensitive, and may, because they are not as enlightened as us, shoot and kill at perpetrators of 'insult?' Isn't that dishonest? Isn't that truly cowardly? Acting or not acting because one is coming from some sort of 'practical standpoint' reflects a moral vacuum. When in Rome, do as the Romans…

The NY Times, like some others, has already started spreading the toxin about the murdered French journalist - he was always 'provoking,' implying of course he brought this upon himself. Let's all shoot him again. It's out of Lewis Carroll. Up is down. Wrong is right and the victim is the wrongdoer.

When I read some of the responses here I can only stand in awe of the great Winston Churchill and how he got through the appeasing, cowardly and morally vacant 1930's in Europe.

Thank God for all of us he existed and withstood the vile lies thrown at him.

Great thoughts above dbussone and beechie.

Excellent post..........(below a bit of history on the Crusades......)

Does anyone really see an end in sight to this extremism & terrorism?

It's frightening for us, as grandparents to six, witnessing new life, precious little children born out of love......innocent by nature......

What type of world will they travel as adults, alongside perhaps, totally deranged people, twisted by their perception of religion & religious "right" vs. "wrong".

American children are being taught to be loving, kind, accepting, inclusive of all nationalities, religions, etc., etc.......

They are the peace makers. What are they up against?




Which came first....the Muslim Crusades or the Christian Crusades?


Besides following Muhammad, why else did the Muslims launch their Crusades out of Arabia in the first place?


In a complicated Crusade that lasted several centuries before the European Crusades, it is difficult to come up with a grand single theory as to what launched these Crusades.


Muslim apologists like Sayyid Qutb assert that Islam’s mission is to correct the injustices of the world.


What he has in mind is that if Islam does not control a society, then injustice dominates it. But if Islam dominates it, then justice rules it .


Even today, they all seem to think the westerners are "infidels".


Islam is expansionist and must conquer the whole world to express Allah’s perfect will on this planet, so Qutb and other Muslims believe. But this is ambiguous at best.


Over the centuries until now, Islam does not represent justice.


People, especially women, are oppressed in Islamic lands—for reasons beyond bad rulers like Saddam Hussein. The essence of Islam, which Qutb correctly describes elsewhere , is to control the details of society, but sharia (Islamic law) sometimes becomes excessive. Excess is never just. Nonetheless, Qutb describes Islam as politically and militarily expansionist from the very beginning, and in this he is right.


Most think of the Crusades which were military campaigns sanctioned by the Latin Roman Catholic Church during the High Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages.


In 1095 Pope Urban II proclaimed the First Crusade with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to holy places in and near Jerusalem.


Many historians and some of those involved at the time, like Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, give equal precedence to other papal-sanctioned military campaigns undertaken for a variety of religious, economic, and political reasons, such as the Albigensian Crusade, the Aragonese Crusade, the Reconquista, and the Northern Crusades.


Following the First Crusade there was an intermittent 200-year struggle for control of the Holy Land, with six more major crusades and numerous minor ones.


In 1291, the conflict ended in failure with the fall of the last Christian stronghold in the Holy Land at Acre, after which Roman Catholic Europe mounted no further coherent response in the east.






Islamic Crusades vs. Christian Crusades


Who should own the "Kingdom of Heaven"?


In Ridley Scott’s monumental movie, "The Kingdom of Heaven", which is another way of saying Jerusalem according to the end of the film, the European Crusaders and the Muslim Crusaders fight over the city, with the Muslims coming out victorious.


The city historically and originally belonged to the Jews; they owned it a thousand years before Christ came and 1600 before Muhammad came. And when they were exiled, many came back, as soon as it was feasible; the love for this city runs deeply in them. So it belongs to them today.


It is simply a myth to assume that Muslims or Christians won Jerusalem by some kind of divine right or by an unchallenged assumption that says, "of course they own the region."


With that said, however, the film makes an erroneous assumption. It assumes that the European Crusaders and the Muslim Crusaders stand on an equal footing when they fight over Jerusalem.


The opposite is true. When the Medieval Christians fought over earthly ground, they abandoned the example of Jesus Christ.


However, when the Muslims fought over Jerusalem and conquered other cities, they were following the example of their prophet Muhammad. So the two religions do not stand on the same ground whatsoever.




The Islamic Crusades


Few Westerners know that the Muslims launched their own Crusades outside of Arabia two years after Muhammad’s death of a fever in AD 632.


The word Crusade (derived from the Latin word for "cross") means a holy war or jihad.


It is used as a counterweight to the constant Muslim accusation that only the Europeans launched a crusade. Muslims seem to forget that they had their own, for several centuries before the Europeans launched theirs as a defense against the Islamic expansion.




Who or what inspired the Islamic Crusades?


It may surprise the reader that Muhammad was the first to launch a Crusade.


In October to December 630, after the conquest of Mecca in January 630, Muhammad launches a Crusade to Tabuk, a city in the north of Saudi Arabia today, but in the seventh century it was under the control of northern tribes.


"Crusade" is the right word, because early Muslim sources say the army had 30,000 men and 10,000 horsemen and because Muhammad did so under the banner of Islam.


On his way north, Muhammad extracts (or extorts) "agreements"—without provocation—from smaller Christian Arab tribes to pay the jizyah tax, instead of being attacked and killed (a jizya tax is exacted from non-Muslims for the "privilege" of living under Islam).


They also had the option to convert, but most do not and agree, rather, to pay the tax. Once the Muslims reach Tabuk, however, the Byzantine army fails to materialize. Muhammad the prophet had believed a false rumor. So Muhammad and his large army return home.


So it is Muhammad himself who inspired the first generations of Muslims to carry out his Crusades.


Will it ever end????? They are still in their HOLY WAR.....

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Tom, I am NOT defending people making fun or being critical or hurting others about their religion. When the gooney pastor here in Florida burnt the copy of the Quran I thought that is just plain wrong. Someone is likely to kill you. You are gonna bring trouble to all of us and what are you accomplishing??? I was mad when someone said something about the Virgin Mary on this forum that was a very not nice joke. I get it.

But murdering someone sets an entirely different bar.

I don't care how devout you are, someone, sometime is gonna say something about your God, your wife or your kid, your house or your shirt. We don't kill people over it. Everyone needs to be protected against that kind of extremism.

That is why I am afraid of Muslim extremists. We all should be wary.

The magazine was way too much for me. I am not defending it's tone or it's taste or agreeing with it.

They not only insulted Muslims. Apparently they insulted everyone; the French President, our president etc. etc. In the link someone posted, there was a picture of Barack Obama and a large rabbit next to each other, lampooning the presidents ears.

The Today show showed one of the four cartoons. It was the prophet kneeling with a man in an Isis uniform with a knife at his throat and the prophet saying. I am God, you idiot.

I saw that the spokesperson for the American Library Association denounced these murders but I will bet that very few US libraries have magazines like MAD, the French one targeted, or others like these IN PRINT FORM. You will not find many items in local public libraries where the majority of that community object to the contents. No Hustlers for instance and rarely Playboys or Playgirls.

Murdering people who write stuff you object to though takes this to a whole 'nother level as they said often on MAD TV. I mean whole 'nother level. It is terrorism plain and simple.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by CFrance

Rags, you are jogging my memory. When we were living in north Jersey in 1980s, it was a known fact that there were parts of NYC where the police simply wouldn't go. It just wasn't a published fact.

I know what my son will say about Australia and safety. But I will ask him about the law.

France became an immigration utopia after WWII, with the majority of immigrants centering around Paris and other big cities. There is a lot of violence in these outer suburbs, much poverty, and the authorities don't have a handle on it. That much we saw while there.

THAT is EXACTLY my fear in this country. Many, if not most, immigrants that come here now have no plan to EVER be assimilated into our society, and will resist efforts to do that. In the past we were set up so that those immigrants who naturally stayed together in this country needed to assimilate to succeed or survive. Now, it appears that is not necessary or wanted. I spelled out a few months ago on here my experiences in Pennsylvania where the spanish speaking community plain refused to participate in programs for youth that we were expanding to include them...they were clear that they wanted to say within themselves.

Having pockets as you describe in this country, and they DO exist as I have spelled out and you recall. Then when we discuss them and suggest changes, we are made to feel guilty.

Sorry..hate to be trite, but if you come to America, bring your countries best of's and hold them dear, but become an American. Again, if you say this you are made to be the "bad guy"

This attack was a terrorist attack, and sadly, we can expect more as long as we allow it and I sincerely mean that...as long as we allow it.

[Rags123]

And it continues as we all thought it might...

"A female police officer was killed after she was called to reports of a traffic accident involving a grey Clio at around 7.15am. A street sweeper was wounded in the shooting."

In today's attack, which is not being linked by officials to yesterday's shootings, a man wearing a bullet-proof vest fired at the police woman and a civilian, who is thought to be a council worker.
Witness Ahmed Sassi said: "There was an officer in front of a white car and a man running away who shot."
TV channel iTele said both victims of the shooting were seen lying on the ground.
Le Parisien newspaper reported that one of the shooters ran towards the Metro station Chatillon-Montrouge. The other is reported to have fled by car and is still on the run.
AFP news agency reported that a 53-year-old suspect has been detained.
Brunt said: "It's difficult to believe there's no link (to the Charlie Hebdo shootings)."

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-off...4.html#TWuDlGw

[dbussone]

CFrance - here's one of the problematic issues being discussed:

Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states

By Rowan Scarborough - The Washington Times 1754 SHARES
A backdrop to the massacre in Paris on Wednesday by self-professed al Qaeda terrorists is that city officials have increasingly ceded control of heavily Muslim neighborhoods to Islamists, block by block.



Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/#ixzz3OEnjoGc8

[B767drvr]

Originally Posted by Rags123

THAT is EXACTLY my fear in this country. Many, if not most, immigrants that come here now have no plan to EVER be assimilated into our society, and will resist efforts to do that. In the past we were set up so that those immigrants who naturally stayed together in this country needed to assimilate to succeed or survive. Now, it appears that is not necessary or wanted. I spelled out a few months ago on here my experiences in Pennsylvania where the spanish speaking community plain refused to participate in programs for youth that we were expanding to include them...they were clear that they wanted to say within themselves.

Having pockets as you describe in this country, and they DO exist as I have spelled out and you recall. Then when we discuss them and suggest changes, we are made to feel guilty.

Sorry..hate to be trite, but if you come to America, bring your countries best of's and hold them dear, but become an American. Again, if you say this you are made to be the "bad guy"

This attack was a terrorist attack, and sadly, we can expect more as long as we allow it and I sincerely mean that...as long as we allow it.

I agree Rags…

Moreover, these Islamic immigrants move to France, refuse to assimilate, and then DEMAND the French suspend their free speech rights (no making fun of Allah) or they will be KILLED!

How is this not like a big bully? Some on this thread say the "smart" thing to do is not provoke the bully. Europe tried to "appease" the big bully Hitler and not "provoke" him either.

Gut check time. Time to protect the right of free speech without equivocating. Hunt down and kill the terrorists, plain and simple.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by dbussone

CFrance - here's one of the problematic issues being discussed:

Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states

By Rowan Scarborough - The Washington Times 1754 SHARES
A backdrop to the massacre in Paris on Wednesday by self-professed al Qaeda terrorists is that city officials have increasingly ceded control of heavily Muslim neighborhoods to Islamists, block by block.



Read more: Washington Times - Politics, Breaking News, US and World News

Thanks, I will read. I am not denying this is a problem. Instead of passing laws denying the right to wear hijabs, they ought to be arresting and deporting.

[Chi-Town]

If this happened in Israel there would be no discussion of how we should not provoke regardless of free press. They would be hunted down like the dogs they are. And it would be a relentless pursuit.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by B767drvr

I agree Rags…

Moreover, these Islamic immigrants move to France, refuse to assimilate, and then DEMAND the French suspend their free speech rights (no making fun of Allah) or they will be KILLED!

How is this not like a big bully? Some on this thread say the "smart" thing to do is not provoke the bully. Europe tried to "appease" the big bully Hitler and not "provoke" him either.

Gut check time. Time to protect the right of free speech without equivocating. Hunt down and kill the terrorists, plain and simple.

I think, and I am not a smart guy nor one who looks for trouble, but in my country we need NOW immigration reform because we need to ENFORCE THE LAW and stop appeasing to ensure we are deemed correct by whomever. I mean by reform is to enforce the law and find a way to do that.

People are coming into our country with no intention of becoming American and have not only no knowledge of our law, but a complete indifference to our law. That continues at a pace that is staggering to me. What happened in France WILL happen here, aided by american citizens who have the same attitude about our law.

Those NO GO zones in France are at the "seed" stage in our country.