12 killed in Paris by extreme Islamists.

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  #16  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi-Town View Post
This cartoon was the cover for the New Yorker magazine a few years back. Satire and press are common associates. But not worth murdering for. Unless you're a nutjob.

I feel that many use that argument. That a person or persons would have to be mentally ill/ sick to do such a thing...BUT can all Muslim extremists be mentally ill? I don't think so. They are choosing an ideology which is murderous....and if someone now brings up the crusades............

This is NOW. Should we really not treat them like we treat everyone else? If you look at the link above, I think the second post, if you scroll down, you see a photo the satiric paper (Charlie someone) apparently used of a back view of Barack Obama showing his rather prominent ears, next to the back of a large bunny.

No one is immune, apparently, from their satire. It may hurt and it may inflame, but isn't that within the measure of an ordinary person's self control?
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  #17  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Beechie View Post
Political correctness can and will quell freedom of speech. Political satire is the exercising of that fundamental right in a democracy. Like it or not. We only agree with the satire if it suits our ideology. To accept and succumb to the horrible outcome as "expected" in light of their political satire is outrageous. To suggest they got what they deserved is a victory for the terrorists. Certainly the two dead policemen were just there to do their job. We have to stop making excuses for their rampant murdering sprees and we need to resist blaming the victims.
You're looking for an argument where there is none.. No one got what they deserved. The word "deserved" is yours not mine. They got what could be expected under the circumstances. Just as if you walk through a high-crime neighborhood with 100 dollar bills sticking out of your pockets, you can expect to get robbed but you don't deserve it.

No one is making excuses for the terrorists. I'm just saying that some retaliation should have been expected.

Was it worth it considering the loss of life with two policemen dead? In what way was it worth it? What's the payoff? Will this bring more freedom of speech anytime soon? I'll bet there's plenty of political correctness in France. Will this change now?
  #18  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Villages PL View Post
They got what could be expected under the circumstances.
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Originally Posted by Beechie View Post
To accept and succumb to the horrible outcome as "expected" in light of their political satire is outrageous. To suggest they got what they deserved is a victory for the terrorists.
Beechie, I agree.
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  #19  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Villages PL View Post
You're looking for an argument where there is none.. No one got what they deserved. The word "deserved" is yours not mine. They got what could be expected under the circumstances. Just as if you walk through a high-crime neighborhood with 100 dollar bills sticking out of your pockets, you can expect to get robbed but you don't deserve it.

No one is making excuses for the terrorists. I'm just saying that some retaliation should have been expected.

Was it worth it considering the loss of life with two policemen dead? In what way was it worth it? What's the payoff? Will this bring more freedom of speech anytime soon? I'll bet there's plenty of political correctness in France. Will this change now?
I do not see that as an equivalent argument. There are many US sources of satire and very tasteless free speech-- TOPIX threads come to mind-- but publishing offensive cartoons is hardly the same as walking down the Tenderloin with very expensive clothing and not expecting to be mugged.


I suppose if you walked down a street in Tehran and started insulting whatever Gods they worship there, that might be closer. That person should get a Darwin Award but for drawing cartoons from a very sophisticated city like Paris....
  #20  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:44 PM
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Have you seen their cartoons?
Google Charlie Hebdo and select images

Have you seen how they also depicted The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit?

If you go to Google translate you can enter the text to read the translated captions.

From what I read about the magazine, the more insulting the cartoons were the more copies were sold, and the more money they made.

This is not a magazine that merely makes a country's leader or church's leader look foolish or backwards. That's the price of freedom and I understand that means anything goes.
  #21  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Villages PL View Post
You're looking for an argument where there is none.. No argument here, just my thoughts No one got what they deserved. The word "deserved" is yours not mine. I said "to suggest" meaning expressed indirectly. They got what could be expected under the circumstances. Just as if you walk through a high-crime neighborhood with 100 dollar bills sticking out of your pockets, you can expect to get robbed but you don't deserve it.

No one is making excuses for the terrorists. I'm just saying that some retaliation should have been expected. Agreed, but should we now just expect and accept mass murders?

Was it worth it considering the loss of life with two policemen dead? In what way was it worth it? What's the payoff? Will this bring more freedom of speech anytime soon? I'll bet there's plenty of political correctness in France. Will this change now?
I truly hope that radical extremism is given the top priority in all western societies as the very foundation of our freedoms are being challenged with feckless reprisal.
  #22  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tomwed View Post
Have you seen their cartoons?
Google Charlie Hebdo and select images

Have you seen how they also depicted The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit?

If you go to Google translate you can enter the text to read the translated captions.

From what I read about the magazine, the more insulting the cartoons were the more copies were sold, and the more money they made.

This is not a magazine that merely makes a country's leader or church's leader look foolish or backwards. That's the price of freedom and I understand that means anything goes.
Tom - we both recognize them as equal opportunity offenders. And you're correct that it is the price of freedom, and we don't like the tasteless things they print, but we also recognize we need to defend their right to do so.
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  #23  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:55 PM
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France had many North African Colonies like Algeria and Libya. The people of these countries are considered to have French Citizenship rights. So, there are many of them in France. With the Birth Dearth amongst Europeans, by 2050 Europe will be predominantly Muslim.

Certain groups tolerate satire better than others, best to know which and not ridicule the Faith and Holy Ones of others. Treat people like you would like to be treated.
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  #24  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dbussone View Post
Tom - we both recognize them as equal opportunity offenders. And you're correct that it is the price of freedom, and we don't like the tasteless things they print, but we also recognize we need to defend their right to do so.
Have you seen their cartoons? That was my question.
  #25  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:58 PM
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Have you seen their cartoons? That was my question.
I have. As I said, they are generally very tasteless.
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  #26  
Old 01-07-2015, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwed View Post
Have you seen their cartoons?
Google Charlie Hebdo and select images

Have you seen how they also depicted The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit?

If you go to Google translate you can enter the text to read the translated captions.

From what I read about the magazine, the more insulting the cartoons were the more copies were sold, and the more money they made.

This is not a magazine that merely makes a country's leader or church's leader look foolish or backwards. That's the price of freedom and I understand that means anything goes.
Actually there are a lot of limitations to free speech in many Western societies and cultures. But this is a magazine of satire that was attacked by murderous thugs who actually sound extremely like well trained killers. I just do not see the problem with the context of the cartoonists.
  #27  
Old 01-07-2015, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bavarian View Post
France had many North African Colonies like Algeria and Libya. The people of these countries are considered to have French Citizenship rights. So, there are many of them in France. With the Birth Dearth amongst Europeans, by 2050 Europe will be predominantly Muslim.

Certain groups tolerate satire better than others, best to know which and not ridicule the Faith and Holy Ones of others. Treat people like you would like to be treated.
take a look at FactCheck click here
  #28  
Old 01-07-2015, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
I feel that many use that argument. That a person or persons would have to be mentally ill/ sick to do such a thing...BUT can all Muslim extremists be mentally ill? I don't think so. They are choosing an ideology which is murderous....and if someone now brings up the crusades............

This is NOW. Should we really not treat them like we treat everyone else? If you look at the link above, I think the second post, if you scroll down, you see a photo the satiric paper (Charlie someone) apparently used of a back view of Barack Obama showing his rather prominent ears, next to the back of a large bunny.

No one is immune, apparently, from their satire. It may hurt and it may inflame, but isn't that within the measure of an ordinary person's self control?
GG, what I meant was that the Muslim extremists are pathological killers and ideologically nuts in my opinion. Their hatred is near psychotic. But when all is said and done they executed a murderous mass killing right out of a Hollywood shoot-em-up. This group is dangerous and trained. And smart enough to get away and do it again.
  #29  
Old 01-07-2015, 04:06 PM
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take a look at FactCheck click here
It does not follow though that these will be extremists. Islam does have the troubling history of the Jihad but reasonable leaders can change things.
  #30  
Old 01-07-2015, 04:10 PM
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Dbussone, You are 100% correct.
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