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billethkid 08-08-2019 06:38 AM

But what does all the so called safety like trigger locks, safes, etc have to do with solving the mass shooting issue?

All the devices/suggestions/etc/etc/etc do absolutely nothing to solve the problem.....the 1% problem. What good does it do if the already law abiding safe gun owner uses all these means and devices to avoid accidental shootings are used by the 98+%.

The one percent would/could care less and will go on their rampage of killing.

This thread is a shining example of why law makers at all levels of government seem to have done little or nothing. Way too much effort being spent debating aspects of gun control that have nothing to do with how to keep us safe from the next mass shooter!!!!

Surely all the brain power available could do an analysis of all public and mass shootings. Reaching some conclusion after looking at all the who, the why, the when, the where, how often, time of day, the weather, how many others knew or saw the signs but did nothing.
What is it that we do not do merely because we are more concerned about offending some one or some group or some organization than nailing down the issue.

WHAT EVER IT TAKES!!!!
Has not happened to date. And it is unlikely to not happen any time soon.

As far as weighing down the 98+% of law abiding gun owners with more controls/restrictions/etc to control the 1%....be happy in the quest as that is all that will be accomplished....the quest that is!!

Polar Bear 08-08-2019 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billethkid (Post 1671350)
But what does all the so called safety like trigger locks, safes, etc have to do with solving the mass shooting issue?...

Considering the topic of the thread, that’s a very fair question. And the answer is obvious to most...nothing.

Taltarzac725 08-08-2019 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polar Bear (Post 1671360)
Considering the topic of the thread, that’s a very fair question. And the answer is obvious to most...nothing.

Actually a gun trigger lock might stop some teenager who takes their parents' weapons with the idea of using these in a school or some other kind of shooting.

Horrible attacks my man using a knife in Southern CA. He was targeting Hispanics. Sounds mentally ill from descriptions of what happened.

4 Killed, 2 Wounded in Series of O.C. Attacks; Suspect Arrested | KTLA

ColdNoMore 08-08-2019 09:00 AM

The truth of the matter is, that the NRA and gun-nuts will do everything possible (including the NRA spending itself into bankruptcy) to stop any meaningful changes in the laws until this tragedy, like all of those previously...slowly goes away.

Which is what they're counting on.

If by chance some traction is gained on changes, there will be screeching about how "the government is trying to take away all of your guns," which as history has proved...will simply spur gun/ammunition sales.

And then grateful gun/ammo manufacturers will donate to the coffers of the NRA to keep their financial heads above water and nothing will happen or change...once again. :oops:

The ONLY way meaningful progress can ever be made in this country, is to somehow convince those who feel 'manly/macho' when they have their guns, that it takes more guts/integrity/honor...to stand up to the insanity of the ingrained gun culture in this country...that so many worship.
:ohdear:

anothersteve 08-08-2019 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore (Post 1671388)
The truth of the matter is, that the NRA and gun-nuts will do everything possible (including the NRA spending itself into bankruptcy) to stop any meaningful changes in the laws until this tragedy, like all of those previously...slowly goes away.

Which is what they're counting on.

If by chance some traction is gained on changes, there will be screeching about how "the government is trying to take away all of your guns," which as history has proved...will simply spur gun/ammunition sales.

And then grateful gun/ammo manufacturers will donate to the coffers of the NRA to keep their financial heads above water and nothing will happen or change...once again. :oops:

The ONLY way meaningful progress can ever be made in this country, is to somehow convince those who feel 'manly/macho' when they have their guns, that it takes more guts/integrity/honor...to stand up to the insanity of the ingrained gun culture in this country...that so many worship.
:ohdear:

What Both Sides Don't Get About American Gun Culture - POLITICO Magazine

"The view of guns as neutral tools, a view shared by conservative defenders of gun rights as well as liberal advocates of gun regulation, misses a crucial fact about guns and gun ownership. It wrongly assumes that the distribution of guns and their presence in their owners' lives are totally independent facts that don't shape the opportunities and choices of the people who use them.

But increasingly, research into the culture and political views of gun owners is painting a very different portrait. Gun owners' politics don't generally fall into lockstep with the NRA—but guns themselves are woven into people's lives in ways that go far beyond a tool. This suggests that the path to gun law reform won’t be as simple as liberals might hope or conservatives might fear."

"One of the most authoritative and interesting surveys of the attitudes of gun owners was conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2017. That survey shows the vast majority of Americans who own guns are not members of the NRA and that most favor some form of gun control. However, most refrain from pushing for greater regulation of guns because they neither trust the government nor believe that it will protect them. They often resent the disdain for their way of life of the kind expressed by President Barack Obama when he suggested they “cling to guns or religion” as a way of expressing “antipathy to people who aren't like them … as a way to explain their frustrations." They see themselves as on their own in a dangerous world."

The demographics of gun ownership in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

Steve

ColdNoMore 08-08-2019 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anothersteve (Post 1671398)
What Both Sides Don't Get About American Gun Culture - POLITICO Magazine

"The view of guns as neutral tools, a view shared by conservative defenders of gun rights as well as liberal advocates of gun regulation, misses a crucial fact about guns and gun ownership. It wrongly assumes that the distribution of guns and their presence in their owners' lives are totally independent facts that don't shape the opportunities and choices of the people who use them.

But increasingly, research into the culture and political views of gun owners is painting a very different portrait. Gun owners' politics don't generally fall into lockstep with the NRA—but guns themselves are woven into people's lives in ways that go far beyond a tool. This suggests that the path to gun law reform won’t be as simple as liberals might hope or conservatives might fear."

"One of the most authoritative and interesting surveys of the attitudes of gun owners was conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2017. That survey shows the vast majority of Americans who own guns are not members of the NRA and that most favor some form of gun control. However, most refrain from pushing for greater regulation of guns because they neither trust the government nor believe that it will protect them. They often resent the disdain for their way of life of the kind expressed by President Barack Obama when he suggested they “cling to guns or religion” as a way of expressing “antipathy to people who aren't like them … as a way to explain their frustrations." They see themselves as on their own in a dangerous world."

The demographics of gun ownership in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

Steve

Thank you for making my point...much appreciated. :ho:


Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore (Post 1671388)
The truth of the matter is, that the NRA and gun-nuts will do everything possible...


...to stand up to the insanity of the ingrained gun culture in this country.


P.S. And by no means should my label of "gun-nuts" be applied to all who own weapons. That designation is reserved for those who put any regulation of guns...above the lives of innocent children and the public.

I mean for cripes sake, discounting the insane scumbags who claimed that Sandy Hook never even happened, if next to nothing of consequence was accomplished after THAT atrocity...what chance does any other tragedy have of changing the gun-nut's minds?
:ohdear:

anothersteve 08-08-2019 10:21 AM

"but guns themselves are woven into people's lives in ways that go far beyond a tool."

That's all you took in from those two links?

Steve

ColdNoMore 08-08-2019 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anothersteve (Post 1671412)
"but guns themselves are woven into people's lives in ways that go far beyond a tool."

That's all you took in from those two links?

Steve

Nope.

Unlike a lot of people here who eschew links in general (quite likely because they haven't figured out how to even provide them :oops:) and others who seldom read them anyway, I almost always take the time to read links provided (a believer of 'never miss an opportunity to increase one's knowledge')...in their entirety.

But instead of taking every single item that I agreed with/supported my own view(s), or even the opinions that I disagree with, I simply highlighted that portion of your post...that went straight to the crux of the issue.
:ho:

Taltarzac725 08-08-2019 11:21 AM

How many hunters in the US use an assault rifle for hunting? - Quora

Found this interesting.

I grew up around a lot of friends who loved guns in Reno, Nevada. I had two shotguns and two 22s. A single shot 22 and a lever action Winchester like 22.

Used to hunt rattlesnakes around Rattlesnake Mountain in Reno, Nevada with a few friends but was never very good as I would take the rear in the line and "accidentally" bump into rocks. Boy was I clumsy.

The friends I went hunting with had a lot of rattlesnake skins tacked up in their bed rooms. I had Playboy centerfolds at around 13 or 14.

I gave up the friends after one of them shot me in the left picky with a BB gun. He had been pointing it at my eye but I persuaded him to try to shoot between my fingers. He missed. But I had had enough of these "friends" who were very much into the hunting tradition.

They did eat the rattlesnakes they killed.

Trayderjoe 08-08-2019 11:59 AM

Minors and background checks
 
I was listening to a discussion that indicated that juvenile records are sealed and/or expunged and thus the current background checks for firearms purchases would not include juvenile records. A juvenile could have committed a crime (or crimes) which would prohibit owning or purchasing a firearm when similar crimes committed by an adult would be flagged.

Should this be true, then all rules that block access to these records should be evaluated, so that firearm purchase background checks can access these records. Perhaps a "first pass" compromise for those who want to keep all juvenile records sealed would be to access personal versus property crimes.

Taltarzac725 08-08-2019 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe (Post 1671447)
I was listening to a discussion that indicated that juvenile records are sealed and/or expunged and thus the current background checks for firearms purchases would not include juvenile records. A juvenile could have committed a crime (or crimes) which would prohibit owning or purchasing a firearm when similar crimes committed by an adult would be flagged.

Should this be true, then all rules that block access to these records should be evaluated, so that firearm purchase background checks can access these records. Perhaps a "first pass" compromise for those who want to keep all juvenile records sealed would be to access personal versus property crimes.

There should be a lot of due process in these kind of matters and not broad bumper sticker like policies. Some kids get in with the wrong crowd and then turn over a new leaf. That certainly happened with me and my older brother in Reno, Nevada. I got away from my teen friends because they were too violent for my taste and surrounded myself with books. Then met an English teacher who challenged me to read the classics and the like and gave me a small Memorial Scholarship in her murdered daughter's name-- the Michelle Mitchell Memorial Scholarship. Some of my classmates in her English class and others at Earl Wooster HS were suspects in her murder which was not solved until 1979. It happened on my birthday of 2-24 in 1976. The police were interested in part with Earl Wooster HS students because a Earl Wooster HS student had committed a heinous murder in 1963 of a British skiing instructor Olympic athlete. I guess they thought history might be repeating itself. At least, some of us saw it that way. Both of these killings were with knives.

And it turned out that they got the wrong person in 1979 because of her false confession and the Reno, Nevada community's need to get this case closed. They did identify the most probable culprit in 2014. After the mentally ill woman was behind bars in a mental ward for 35 years.

Context is important and not painting with a too broad a brush. But mistakes are still made but fortunately not that often.

Midnight Cowgirl 08-08-2019 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 1671267)
I finally read something that seems to make a lot of sense to me as a very reasonable idea to help prevent future mass shootings. The White House has instructed the Department of Justice to work with large internet social media companies such as Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, to develop tools to help identify potential mass murders BEFORE they commit a horrible crime. With the benefit of hindsight, it has been conclusively demonstrated that almost all mass murderers (over the last few years) have had a very strong social media presence including tell tale posts indicative of their intensions.


I had mentioned this same thing many, many comments before this one.

I think the public has to be aware of these problematic posts by others that seem to sound a little strange and should be reported to authorities also.

With so many of us on social media sites, the public could easily spot a comment that needs to be reported.

Trayderjoe 08-08-2019 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 (Post 1671466)
There should be a lot of due process in these kind of matters and not broad bumper sticker like policies. Some kids get in with the wrong crowd and then turn over a turn leaf. That certainly happened with me and my older brother in Reno, Nevada. I got away from my teen friends because they were too violent for my taste and surrounded myself with books. Then met an English teacher who challenged me to read the classics and the like and gave me a small Memorial Scholarship in her murdered daughter's name-- the Michelle Mitchell Memorial Scholarship. Some of my classmates in her English class and others at Earl Wooster HS were suspects in her murder which was not solved until 1979. It happened on my birthday of 2-24 in 1976. The police were interested in part with Earl Wooster HS students because a Earl Wooster HS student had committed a heinous murder in 1963 of a British skiing instructor Olympic athlete. I guess they thought history might be repeating itself. At least, some of us saw it that way. Both of these killings were with knives.

And it turned out that they got the wrong person in 1979 because of her false confession and the Reno, Nevada community's need to get this case closed. They did identify the most probably culprit in 2014. After the mentally ill woman was behind bars in a mental ward for 35 years.

Context is important and not painting with a too broad a brush. But mistakes are still made but fortunately not that often.

I agree that a broad brush should not be applied, nor did I suggest it. However, where there is a clear criminal history involving crimes against a person (think robbery, assault, etc.) by a juvenile, then that should be considered when that juvenile becomes an adult if they are trying to purchase a firearm. I specifically parsed out the "property" crimes as an example of a "quick" compromise.

Overall, we still have to understand why we have a violence problem, and when someone has such a track record as a juvenile, it should not be expunged or erased from consideration once they become an adult IF they choose to own a firearm in particular.

I wouldn't leave this to politicians to decide the how, clearly the appropriate people need to be identified to put together an appropriate plan.

Will the system be perfect? Probably not, but then again, we do need to do something to keep firearms away from people who should not be in possession of them.

Trayderjoe 08-08-2019 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Cowgirl (Post 1671470)
I had mentioned this same thing many, many comments before this one.

I think the public has to be aware of these problematic posts by others that seem to sound a little strange and should be reported to authorities also.

With so many of us on social media sites, the public could easily spot a comment that needs to be reported.

Agreed. What concerns me is what we hear from people about a mass shooter AFTER such a horrible act. I forget which shooter, but a former friend indicated that AFTER A GUN WAS HELD TO HIS HEAD he stopped being friends with the murderer. Why was this not reported? And if it was, why was it not acted upon? We have also heard from school mates about rape and murder lists. One person claimed she and her mother reported a concern to the school system and nothing happened. Are these people making this stuff up for "15 minutes of fame" or did any/all of these events really happen? I keep hearing if "you see something, say something". Does this really need to be qualified to indicate that you say something BEFORE a murder?

Midnight Cowgirl 08-08-2019 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe (Post 1671490)
Agreed. What concerns me is what we hear from people about a mass shooter AFTER such a horrible act. I forget which shooter, but a former friend indicated that AFTER A GUN WAS HELD TO HIS HEAD he stopped being friends with the murderer. Why was this not reported? And if it was, why was it not acted upon? We have also heard from school mates about rape and murder lists. One person claimed she and her mother reported a concern to the school system and nothing happened. Are these people making this stuff up for "15 minutes of fame" or did any/all of these events really happen? I keep hearing if "you see something, say something". Dve just happened,,oes this really need to be qualified to indicate that you say something BEFORE a murder?


I think when someone hears or reads something that may sound a little strange, they don't realize the severity of the words until something bad happens.

I do believe that now -- in light of all the things that have just happened, we all are more aware and on guard.

Barefoot 08-08-2019 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe (Post 1671490)
Agreed. What concerns me is what we hear from people about a mass shooter AFTER such a horrible act. I forget which shooter, but a former friend indicated that AFTER A GUN WAS HELD TO HIS HEAD he stopped being friends with the murderer. Why was this not reported? And if it was, why was it not acted upon?

We have also heard from school mates about rape and murder lists. One person claimed she and her mother reported a concern to the school system and nothing happened.

Are these people making this stuff up for "15 minutes of fame" or did any/all of these events really happen? I keep hearing if "you see something, say something". Does this really need to be qualified to indicate that you say something BEFORE a murder?

Good questions!
It's incredible to read about these red flags that happened prior to the mass murders. :ohdear:

Nucky 08-08-2019 04:45 PM

I'm waiting for a post from Carl In Tampa. Many people in our Community with Law Enforcement Backgrounds may have different ideas or thoughts than many of our regular people. This Thread has been Fantastic with many Great Ideas but Unfortunately IMHO The Horse Is Out Of The Barn.

I hope many of the possible remedies mentioned and those we haven't heard can be melded into a real solution ASAP. I hope the Rhetoric from everyone will calm down. I can only do something about me so I'll be the first to as my kids say, Chill Out!

I mean to be strickly constructive with my post. Don't spin it, please.

anothersteve 08-08-2019 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Cowgirl (Post 1671492)
I think when someone hears or reads something that may sound a little strange, they don't realize the severity of the words until something bad happens.

I do believe that now -- in light of all the things that have just happened, we all are more aware and on guard.

You mean maybe something like this?

Mother of El Paso shooter Patrick Crusius called police about son owning assault rifle: Lawyers - ABC News

Steve

Barefoot 08-08-2019 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anothersteve (Post 1671566)

Wow. :ohdear:

OrangeBlossomBaby 08-08-2019 09:49 PM

He's 21, has no record or history of criminal activity, therefore he is legally allowed to purchase and possess an AR-15. The bar is set pretty low for gun ownership. The standards are lower than those for driving a car. No one should be surprised by this, at all. Angry, yes. Surprise, no.

Aces4 08-08-2019 11:13 PM

...

Taltarzac725 08-09-2019 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe (Post 1671483)
I agree that a broad brush should not be applied, nor did I suggest it. However, where there is a clear criminal history involving crimes against a person (think robbery, assault, etc.) by a juvenile, then that should be considered when that juvenile becomes an adult if they are trying to purchase a firearm. I specifically parsed out the "property" crimes as an example of a "quick" compromise.

Overall, we still have to understand why we have a violence problem, and when someone has such a track record as a juvenile, it should not be expunged or erased from consideration once they become an adult IF they choose to own a firearm in particular.

I wouldn't leave this to politicians to decide the how, clearly the appropriate people need to be identified to put together an appropriate plan.

Will the system be perfect? Probably not, but then again, we do need to do something to keep firearms away from people who should not be in possession of them.

One good thing about the Reno, Nevada mess with the Michelle Mitchell murder and its solution is that the National Judicial College is at the University of Nevada, Reno. Home | The National Judicial College (UNR) Michelle Mitchell lost her life close to the UNR campus on 2-24-1976. She was a 19 year old nursing student and not too far from the nursing school when murdered. Of course, the co-eds were very scared that this killer might return to campus. I got two BAs at the University of Nevada, Reno. (1980, 1981 -- Philosophy/History) Her murder was "solved" in 1979.


Some of my Philosophy and other UNR professors taught classes at the National Judicial College.

The boy who shot me in the left pinky around 1974 with a BB gun went into a mental health treatment program soon after that and is now a very successful Reno businessman. Or looks like it. I did not stay in touch with any of the people from that crowd except for one of their sisters. She was very pretty.

OrangeBlossomBaby 08-09-2019 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 (Post 1671697)
One good thing about the Reno, Nevada mess with the Michelle Mitchell murder and its solution is that the National Judicial College is at the University of Nevada, Reno. Home | The National Judicial College (UNR) Michelle Mitchell lost her life close to the UNR campus on 2-24-1976. She was a 19 year old nursing student and not too far from the nursing school when murdered. Of course, the co-eds were very scared that this killer might return to campus. I got two BAs at the University of Nevada, Reno. Her murder was "solved" in 1979.

The boy who shot me in the left pinky around 1974 with a BB gun went into a mental health treatment program soon after that and is now a very successful Reno businessman. Or looks like it.

I was shot in the back by a guy with a BB rifle, when I was in high school. We were at a strip-mall parking lot near the school and I was walking back to class after lunch, he and his buddies were also returning, but a little bit behind me.

I never reported it because these were known bullies, and I knew if I reported it and one of the kids got in trouble, the others in the group would have made the next 3 years of high school a living nightmare.

They weren't mentally ill, and they were legally allowed to own the rifles. No one stopped them, no one called the police when they heard the shot (BB guns aren't silent afterall).

The BB lodged around 1/10th inch deep into the flesh under my shoulderblade. If it had gone two inches to the left I would have suffered permanent spinal damage.

He was aiming for my buttocks.

Fast forward to my early marriage years, when I was in my 30's. Beloved spouse had a BB gun but kept it in storage in the condo basement, which was a shared space under the building, each unit separated by chicken-wire walls.

Some kid from the next building broke into the cellar, broke into our unit, and stole the BB gun. He then proceded to go up the hill to another building, and shot through the screen window of a neighbor. The neighbor's infant child was sitting in a high chair at the table near the window.

I do not, have never, and never will approve of guns, for anyone, for any reason. But I acknowledge and appreciate that they are a necessary part of law enforcement and military. I also acknowledge that - especially in today's mess of a society, people need to maintain their right to own and carry guns to protect themselves against a tyrannical government (which is what the 2nd Amendment was written to do in the first place).

Taltarzac725 08-09-2019 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazuela (Post 1671700)
I was shot in the back by a guy with a BB rifle, when I was in high school. We were at a strip-mall parking lot near the school and I was walking back to class after lunch, he and his buddies were also returning, but a little bit behind me.

I never reported it because these were known bullies, and I knew if I reported it and one of the kids got in trouble, the others in the group would have made the next 3 years of high school a living nightmare.

They weren't mentally ill, and they were legally allowed to own the rifles. No one stopped them, no one called the police when they heard the shot (BB guns aren't silent afterall).

The BB lodged around 1/10th inch deep into the flesh under my shoulderblade. If it had gone two inches to the left I would have suffered permanent spinal damage.

He was aiming for my buttocks.

Fast forward to my early marriage years, when I was in my 30's. Beloved spouse had a BB gun but kept it in storage in the condo basement, which was a shared space under the building, each unit separated by chicken-wire walls.

Some kid from the next building broke into the cellar, broke into our unit, and stole the BB gun. He then proceded to go up the hill to another building, and shot through the screen window of a neighbor. The neighbor's infant child was sitting in a high chair at the table near the window.

I do not, have never, and never will approve of guns, for anyone, for any reason. But I acknowledge and appreciate that they are a necessary part of law enforcement and military. I also acknowledge that - especially in today's mess of a society, people need to maintain their right to own and carry guns to protect themselves against a tyrannical government (which is what the 2nd Amendment was written to do in the first place).

I get the 2nd Amendment and its well regulated militia. The Founding Fathers studied Roman and English history and knew what could happen under a bad king, emperor or demagogue. They also put a lot of checks-and-balances impacting the armed forces so that an Emperor, King or demagogue in the USA could not get control of the military like what would happen often in the Roman Empire. One year the Roman Empire had four Emperors and each had his own army. Another had five Emperors. And one six. Year of the Four Emperors - Wikipedia Year of the Five Emperors - Wikipedia
Year of the Six Emperors - Wikipedia

But a group of private citizens taking on the US military in 2019 is very hard to believe. Could have happened in the 1790s I suppose and maybe up through the 1890s but after the machine gun and tank and other even more horrible weapons were made widely used by the military....

OrangeBlossomBaby 08-09-2019 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 (Post 1671726)
I get the 2nd Amendment and its well regulated militia. The Founding Fathers studied Roman and English history and knew what could happen under a bad king, emperor or demagogue. They also put a lot of checks-and-balances impacting the armed forces so that an Emperor, King or demagogue in the USA could not get control of the military like what would happen often in the Roman Empire. One year the Roman Empire had four Emperors and each had his own army. Another had five Emperors. And one six. Year of the Four Emperors - Wikipedia Year of the Five Emperors - Wikipedia
Year of the Six Emperors - Wikipedia

But a group of private citizens taking on the US military in 2019 is very hard to believe. Could have happened in the 1790s I suppose and maybe up through the 1890s but after the machine gun and tank and other even more horrible weapons were made widely used by the military....

It happened in Germany, Poland, and several other countries between 1939 and 1942. Don't think it can't happen, just because your idea of government military must always, and exclusively, involve tanks and missiles.

The government military can also include foot-soldiers with handguns and rifles, marching through your town and knocking on your door.

Government military can be, has proven to be in the past, and in some places in the world still is, much more nefarious than that.

Taltarzac725 08-09-2019 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazuela (Post 1671749)
It happened in Germany, Poland, and several other countries between 1939 and 1942. Don't think it can't happen, just because your idea of government military must always, and exclusively, involve tanks and missiles.

The government military can also include foot-soldiers with handguns and rifles, marching through your town and knocking on your door.

Government military can be, has proven to be in the past, and in some places in the world still is, much more nefarious than that.

True in lots of parts of the world.

I kind of have a high opinion of the US military because of some of the people I have met over the years and how they often will stand up against those who thwart the rule of law and the US Constitution.

There were good German military in WWII who stood up to Hitler and almost won except for fate in one of the various assassination attempts on Hitler who was a rather mentally ill demagogue who just hit Germany with his despicable ideas at just the wrong time (for Germany and the rest of the world). They moved the meeting place of Hitler's conference because of heat. If not for that he probably would have died along with many of his most prominent followers. 20 July plot - Wikipedia How Close Was Operation Valkyrie to Success? | History Hit

The 2nd Amendment did seem to plan for these kind of people resisting tyrants.


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