yes, and the leaders behind them will have to answer. In the meantime we are instructed to NOT abandon the meeting together. We just hunt harder for a good bible believing church. It's not easy but there are some out there who are still faithful to God's Word. They would be called the remnant.

I read the transcript of Conrad Mbewe's address at the Strange Fire conference, and I did not understand him to say that there was no Christianization of Africa, but rather that there was a competition between traditional Christianity and charismatic Christianity, similar to what the United States experienced a few decades ago.

He was speaking at an anti-charismatic Christianity conference sponsored by Dr. John MacArthur, one of my favorite Bible teachers. (While Dr. MacArthur was visiting my church, he tripped over my outstretched legs and almost fell. I joked with him that if he were injured by tripping over me, I would likely be run out of the church.)

The Pew Study which was the basis for the start of this discussion made no distinction regarding the charismatic movement within the various Christian traditions. There have been charismatics within all of the major denominations, including the Catholics and the Protestant movements.

The dispute between theologians in the United States over the validity of charismatics seeking the "gifts of the spirit" such as speaking in tongues, and those who believe that the granting of such gifts ended in Apostolic times continues to the present, as witnessed by the Strange Fire conference.

I don't see it as a quantifiable factor in the discussion of the alleged "Decline of Christianity" which was the subject of this thread.

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Carl,

Conrad spoke more than once. Did you read all of his transcripts? I remember him saying distinctly not to believe it when we hear about the spread of Christianity in Africa. If I'm correct he said clearly "do not believe it." But yes he also spoke about the competition between one and another as well.

Now I totally understand that to many out there that there is no difference between one movement and another in the so called Christian movement.

I love, love, love John MacArthur. I believe him to be the best expositional preacher since Spurgeon maybe ever!!! We have a beautiful picture of my husband (also a Pastor) and John together. We actually just got it framed for Christmas. Not too many around here know who he is. There were 4,000 people at the conference and I was amazed at his generosity and hospitality to all in the day and age when you see money hungry preachers stealing from their congregations.

I'm having a real hard time getting used to it. I don't like the dark.

First, I abhor abortion and think you make a good point.

However, your reference to how far we've fallen since the Puritan days ignores certain facts in our history. The Puritans arrived in the New England area in 1620. Prior to that time the Jamestown, VA, colony was established in 1607. In 1619 the captain of a Dutch slaver ship exchanged his cargo of African slaves for food at the Jamestown colony. So you see the institution of slavery in our country predates even the Puritans.

And, as more European settlers came to America and the westward expansion developed, the settlers killed native Americans nearly to the point of extinction. Those who survived were relegated to "reservations" where they were neglected and exploited.

Both slave owners and Indian fighters claimed to be Christians, and in fact there was denial by many Christians that the African slaves were actually human beings.

The Civil War began for economic reasons but escalated to become a war to free the slaves. Christians, notably Quakers, were leaders in the abolition movement.

Indians are no longer restricted to reservations. In areas such as Oklahoma and Washington State many tribes participate in great financial wealth that comes from their land. Other tribes are permitted to operate and gain wealth from casinos that non-Indians are prohibited from operating.

In that perspective our culture has not declined, but has improved. No one can argue that an era of non-slavery is not superior to an era of slavery.

This has been more about American history than the alleged decline of Christianity, but the point is that the time of the Puritans was not a golden age to which we should compare modern times.

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Conrad spoke twice. I read the first transcript more thoroughly than the second. My understanding is that since he does not consider charismatic Christianity to be "true" Christianity, then he does not consider the spread of charismatics to be a legitimate measure of Christianity in Africa. Since the Pew study made no distinction that would sort out charismatics, I found it hard to justify a reference to the "decline" of Christianity.

It's a shame that there isn't a local radio station that broadcasts MacArthur's programs.

By the way, the web site link you posted for the Strange Fire conference didn't work. I found it at Media . You can go there and read the transcripts or actually play the videos.

Regards,

Carl

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Some thoughts I want to share especially after reading the many sincere great posts above.

Nothing I can say is either new, earth shattering, nor mine. I've had a rough faith journey and the pendulum of my little life has swung to and fro.

My salvation is not dependent upon brick and mortar churches. Yes, I believe the Christian church which has passed on the faith once received is divine in its non-corporeal sense. However, the ways in which we imperfect and flawed humans have handled our stewardship of the Church is, well, human and not at all praiseworthy. The Roman Catholic church for years harbored low life predatory perverts and moved them from parish to parish because the bishops either didn't care for the flocks or because "We need more priests for the Church, not less." The institution, or "religion" in that sense trumped the essence of faith and morals.

Other ministers have robbed from good honest people and have lived deeply offensive, anti-Christian lives. Charlatans and hypocrites going against the faith and morals once received.

So many mainline Protestant churches have chosen to collapse the First great commandment "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and with all thy mind." Now it's all about the second and seemingly only great commandment "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." The second allows the annoying, non trendy, and certainly antiquated Bible strictures to be placed aside. All sorts of new 'theologies' and rites are being shoved at the faithful in the pews.

Examples are all over the place. Solutions are beyond my pay grade I've learned.

People vote with their feet for sure, and that I think affects the institutional religions. My faith is mine, and doesn't depend upon pervert priests, arrogant bishops, agenda driven 'inclusionists,' nor Hollywood, Howard Stern or any of the other usual suspects.

History has had its ups and downs, but it has had its 'ups.' The dark is temporary if it's real at all. There will always be the science driven skeptics and nihilists. There will also always be the Billy Grahams, the Mother Teresas, Dietrich Bonhoeffers, and on and on.

God will decide when the 'end time' is and still hasn't included me in the memo distribution. :)

I will continue to try to be a Christian, and yes, go to my church, and pray and keep in mind Psalm 46……"Be still, and know that I am God."

Thanks for letting me go on and on, but I needed to say these things.

I believe it is a mistake in many cases to go back in time and judge people based on what we know now.

Not too long ago America was fighting Germany and Japan. I recall the war propaganda being displayed on my movie theatre screen Tokyo Joe, etc

I believe it is not a mistake to speak up and tell church elders that hiding sexual abuse is wrong and all those involved or covering for those involved should be booted out of their church.

I also believe that one does not need statistics to recognize that fewer and fewer people remain within a church especially as their wealth grows and unless their is a life altering event they may never return.

I believe around the world and in this country Christians are being physically and/or psychologically /legally/administratively attack . in that we have lost the intent of those Pilgrims who ventured here to be free to practice their faith in the manner of their choosing

I chose to stay general with my comments because the only issue I have here is that I believe there are certain factions within our democracy who would go to any length to change this country to be godless

I go to church, though I don't think it a requirement to be a "good" Christian. I worship God and Jesus the Christ, but do not worship any clergyman or woman, and certainly do not worship a church or a denomination. I have settled on ELCA Lutheran because it is a very inclusive and non-judgemental denomination, and the worship services tend to be positive and uplifting. Not every church I have attended over the years fit those criteria, but I will not elaborate. I agree with some that in some cases churches, denominations, religions and sects can be very devisive, very judgemental, very insular, and very hostile to anyone who believes differently than themselves, and have caused much trouble in the world over the years. I once belonged to a small church whose hierarchy began to attempt to push a specific political agenda. I resigned and let them know exactly why I did so. I think that it is up to God to judge, not humans, and I will leave it up to him/her to do so with some confidence.

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi

Gandhi failed to distinguish between Christians, who are made in the image of God, and Jesus Christ, who was God.

Gandhi was also more of a political activist than a theologian.

Your understanding is correct and you're right... the link didn't work for me either. It was the right link at one point. I didn't read the transcripts because I was there, and I took good notes. So I don't usually go back and read them later. You should really watch the videos. And the guy that amazed me the most besides MacArthur and Joni was a man named Justin Peters. He's coming here to Belleview on the 19-21 to speak. If you're in the area I would greatly encourage you to hear him. He was amazing. His masters and Ph'd is on the Charismatic subject matter. His thesis was on Bennie Hinn. I think he's up and coming. Young guy working closely with MacArthur's organization.

Moody radio plays MacArthur at 7 PM last I knew here in Florida.

Thanks for saying them. But I have to say the dark is not temporary nor is it new. Satan is called the Prince of Darkness in Scripture. Christ spoke about working while the light was still with them because soon the light would be taken out of the world. He is that light. He told us to be lights in a dark world. There's no question this world is spiritually dark and is increasingly getting darker with less willing to be light carriers.

I agree with all of this...actually Fox News just put this out tonight:

"Deaths of Christians at the hands of persecutors is up worldwide. Some 2,123 Christians were killed last year due to their faith, compared to 1,201 in 2012, according to research. More than half of those reported killings occurred in Syria, followed by Nigeria and Pakistan." http://tinyurl.com/mo2hsl2

All of John MacArthur's sermons broadcasted are archived at the link below, for listening online.

Another great teacher of the God's Word is Erwin W. Lutzer of Moody Church in Chicago....program name at the link below is "Running to Win".

Teaching of the Bible in a relevant and applicable way to take home and apply in everyday contemporary life (not a wandering, off-the-cuff theology/theory lesson) is what people are hungry for all their lives (without actually pinpointing that need), and finally many are finding it in Scripture-teaching churches where God's Spirit is trusted to interpret and empower His Word every time it is read and proclaimed. God's Word never fails:

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
--Isaiah 55:11 (NASB)

Hear audio archives of MacArthur, Lutzer, Swindoll and many Spirit-guided teachers here:

Christian Ministries - Free Online Christian Radio Ministry Broadcasts - OnePlace.com