You have a history of interpreting my posts with meaning entirely different from what I say. Perhaps just ask me to clarify and I will do so promptly and as clearly as I am able.

Great discussion on here and some good information - thank you Carl and Dawn Marie - I too enjoy listening to many of the Christian speakers that you mentioned. Golfingnut, sometimes you confuse me too. You seem kind of combative in your questioning but I have to believe that you are truly seeking answers for yourself. I say that because looking back, I probably appeared that way to others before becoming a believer myself 20 years ago. You all have a local Community Bible Study (CBS) at New Covenant United Methodist Church in The Villages. It is not affiliated with the church, or with any church for that matter, it just uses the facilities. Unfortunately, I think there is only a women's group meeting there now, but the organization does have men's groups (I believe there is one in Ocala). It is an in depth bible study open to anyone - all ages, all denominations, believers and unbelievers, at any level of knowledge. When I started attending a study years ago, I had very little knowledge of the Bible. If interested, check out the organization at their website - communitybiblestudy.org

In rereading my previous post, I feel like it reads like an advertisement, but what I was trying to say, Golfingnut, if you really are interested in learning more and in engaging in some great discussion, check out the Community Bible Study group. Not only did I learn a lot, I gained some wonderful life long friends.:smiley:

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are generally referred to as the three principal monotheistic faiths, all having their roots in the Biblical figure Abraham.

The precepts of each are mutually exclusive; that is to say that they would each reject your proposal that either of the other two provides the path to Heaven. Put in plain language, this is not a buffet; you must choose one of the three and reject the other two.

The only exception that I can think of to this is that there are many Christian theologians who teach that God does have a separate plan for religiously observant Jews who practice the Law --- that would be the minority of all Jews.

It is unlikely that an exchange of views on a web site is going to provide answers to the questions that you have. You might want to consider making an appointment with a minister in a local church for a private meeting. Also, I believe someone has recommended the book Mere Christianity to you. You might read that and see what your reaction is.

Keep seeking.

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another good book is "Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. That would be a good book for Golfingnut to check out.

Abby another good bible study in the Villages is in Lady Lake and is attended by people from all denominations. It's run by Marv Rosenthal who comes in from Winter Garden. He's the one who built the Holy Land Experience in Orlando but sold it a number of years ago. I've been going there about 5 years now and believe it's the best in The Villages. It's at the 1st Baptist Church in Lady Lake at the intersection of 466 and Rolling Acres near the VFW.

I just want to put "an eye for an eye" in perspective. This rule appears in a section of Exodus dealing with Laws. It establishes a rule of proportionality for the punishment for offenses. Without this law it could be that an offender would be punished (injured) far in excess of the injury he had inflicted. So, "an eye for an eye" was a softening of the earlier practice.

When Jesus addressed this issue in The Sermon on The Mount he was discussing a variety of interpersonal relationships. He said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ “But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." This exchanged proportionality for love of one's neighbor.

You do not have the option to return to the earlier, outdated, rule and still be within the Christian faith.

And you are correct, at the close of the Apostolic Age (the death of the last of the twelve Apostles -- and Paul) the Bible was completed. The Bible is complete and unchanging.

There have been many great theologians throughout history who have added enlightenment and understanding to scriptural passages, and archaeology sometimes sheds light on scripture, but there are to be no additions to the Bible.

For ease of reading you might want to consider a Bible translation other than the King James Version which contains much language from the English language structure of 1611 A.D. Dr. Paul Enns, author of The Moody Handbook of Theology, recommends The New American Standard Version as a very good translation.

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Perhaps you are correct or perhaps it is because your posts come across as rhetorical questions. My intent is not to attack or to mis-represent but that is my reading. sorry if you were offended

Golfingnut, it seems to me that you are facing an impasse here. Your struggle with issues of faith, belief, nature of the Bible (OT and NT) etc are wonderful. They may well form the basis of a strong faith.

However, for now, it does seem that the 'apples and oranges' problem has arisen. I had a long struggle in my faith journey…a really long one. I found the comments and opinions of others really didn't do it in my search for answers. I now could assert to you my deep tenets of faith and they probably would not satisfy you. The good people here who are posting back and forth with you have strongly held positions of faith - exactly like me. But I know I am not a theologian, and even if I were, it wouldn't mean much.

Someone once said "Nothing is said that hasn't been said before." I believe that, and I place great value and weight on the words of tradition - right up to the present. Your questions, your doubts and such all have been voiced and felt before by millions of other people, and some have given us their own insights and wisdom and conclusions. They spoke and speak the language you speak, unlike me for sure.

I sure hope that you do pick up CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" and as another man mentioned, even more so, his "Screwtape Letters." Maybe go to a library and pick up the Oxford Annotated Bible just for its valuable Introduction and commentaries before each Book.

Read and read and read others thoughts if you are sincerely on a quest. Four or five posters here on TOTV cannot ever approach the wisdom of the ages. It's there for you. I respectfully suggest reading Psalm 131 several times and reflect on it. It 'right sizes' my swollen head every time.

God bless you and keep on plugging.

Carl, I didn't see your post above before I posted my own directly above. Sorry. You said it all and said it well.

I personally reject any theology that is exclusionary. I have a good friend who is Muslim, is married to a Lutheran, and brings up his children to respect both religions and their traditions. He is a good man and lives an exemplary life, I personally can't accept that God would deny him the kingdom of heaven because he practices a religion other than Christianity. I also choose to believe that most Jews who live good lives will be accepted into heaven. I also believe that the God I believe in would accept children that die before being Christened, and people in areas where they have no knowledge of organized religion. If that is in conflict with traditional religious theology, then so be it, I hope I am the one who is right. If the Muslims are right, we have been living in fantasyland. I cannot reconcile the concept that God created the earth and everything on it, yet blesses only a relative minority of the people on it

So sorry if you thought I felt your post offended me or was attacking in nature. I only wanted to point out that you were mistaken in your interpretation of my post. I was not offended, but did feel obligated to let you know that you misunderstood the intention of my post. I appoligize if my earlier post offended you.

Thanks and I will look into the bible studies they offer. I would prefer a mixed group as I see MEN ONLY as demeaning to women as would be whites only etc.

I don't think we conflicted. Your post was very insightful. We are pretty much on the same page.

Carl

Of course, I'm a woman and I don't see anything demeaning about a men's study at all. I've been to women only studies and mixed groups. Both have their place. Men's studies may gear more towards men's issues as a woman's study would towards women's issues. Nothing wrong with that.

The most important thing is that they are in Scripture. Some groups out there are only into the social aspect of meeting together with very little real teaching. The best studies go in deep and leave you thinking hard in the days after.

I respect your opinion. I am more progressive than most folks my age.

You may reject all three of the great monotheistic religions which spring from the same root, and are considered "revealed" religions, but where does that leave you?

Whom and how do you worship? What is your basis for believing that God cares for you rather than thinking that He is the impersonal Creator who simply set things in motion and let it go? You have to have borrowed from some religious practice to even have the concept of prayer, and for that matter the concept of Heaven.

It sounds like you are at that buffet table, borrowing a little tenet here and a little dogma there and trying to assemble your own religion. None of the three major monotheistic religions would agree with this approach.

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Nor can I.

And I am quite comfortable with that, thank you.

Actually, he hasn't been "verified" except by believers. There is no record of him except in religious texts written by followers...many years after he was gone. I know I sound like a broken record, I keep saying the same thing...neither Jesun nor ANY of his immediate followers wrote anything down. ALL the writings are done decades after he was gone. That is the biggest problem I have with the whole thing. It's like people beginning to talk/write now about someone who died in the 60s. Someone whom nobody wrote about at the time, and now suddenly everyone is writing about. You have no way of knowing what REALLY happened.

People who believe "blindly" often times don't fare well.

Personally, I think we did invent him...just my guess.

Why? Why do you think people MUST believe in something greater than themselves? Men OF God also committ atrocities... Seems comitting atrocities isn't just for non-Christians. Atrocoties were condoned by Popes throughout history, the Pope speaks for God, why the atrocities then? Are atrocities OK with God? Many questions and no answers.

So why not stick to "I don't know"? Why "blindly" believe in a religion? Do you have a "need" to believe? Scientists say we're predisposed to relinquish ourselves to authority. Maybe they're right, maybe we HAVE to believe in something, our genes force us to. Who knows...nobody does...and that's the point. NOBODY knows...

Abortion is responsible for the "baby boom", mainstreaming of birth control and abortion is what stopped the exponential birthrate into the early 60s. It IS a cause of a lot of our problems.

Yes, I agree...read, read, read...but make sure you're an equal opportunity reader...you also have to read things counter your beliefs.

Psalm 131 teaches you to not think about things that are important. Be content in your ignorance like a child. Sorry...that's not for me. I do my own thinking thank you...

Not here for any reason other than to try to get you to have an open mind. Just because everyone believes something...doesn't make it true.

Your "religion" is more where you're born than anything else. And they believe as fervently as you do that THEY are the ones with special knowledge. Religious belief is quite interesting when you study ALL sides. Look at the extremes Muslims go through for their religion. Everyone thinks THEY have found the answer...I posit none have...

Have a great day...

It seems to me that you are saying that to be a "true Christian", you must be intolerant of every other religion, or at least believe that they do not have a path to heaven. How do you reconcile the fact that many Christian denominations have specific beliefs which would exclude every other denomination from a path to heaven. Are you SURE you are in the right one? That is actually a rhetorical question because clearly you do. For all of our sakes, I hope I am right and God has an inclusionary policy.

This isn't true Don. If you use the same standard for all history books that you just used for the bible, then you have to throw them all away just as you do the bible. What about Josephus? The existence of Christ has NEVER been questioned by scholars. NEVER. They may question his deity...but not his person. So the question is where are you getting your information? You can argue he wasn't God but you CANNOT argue that He never existed.

If Christ didn't exist, neither did George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King David, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Caesar etc.

We have more manuscript evidence for Scripture than any other historical document or works of antiquities. Look up Josephesus, Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 Chap 3. All about Jesus. He was an unbelieving Jewish historian who lived during the first century.

Also, the writers of the NT all lived in the first century and were basically eye witness accounts written mostly by the disciples. The scientific method is called textual criticism. Look it up.

I've got more than 40 years of research into this one book. Every other book you read, this book reads you.

Some of this ("I'm a good person")....and some of that ("I did more for the needy than most people")....or some of this ("All the good muslims and hindi and christians are all going to the same place anyway, just by different ways")....

....will not purify nor bring our souls to eternal life in God's holy presence. Only repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as our Redeemer-Savior will prepare our souls for eternal life and perfection in God's presence.

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”
6 Jesus said to him,
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14 (NASB)
__

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5 (NASB)
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39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!”
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him,
“Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


John 14 NASB - Jesus Comforts His Disciples -
John 5 NASB - The Healing at Bethesda - After these - Bible Gateway
Luke 23 NASB - Jesus before Pilate - Then the whole - Bible Gateway

Christ wasn't inclusionary. So what do you think of Christ?

It's not about religions. I've been everything. Started out Catholic, then was an Episcopalian, then JW, Mormon, 7th Day Adventist and today go to a Southern Baptist church. IT"S NOT ABOUT RELIGION.

It's about truth. What is the truth? It's not found in man made religions...but in the person of Christ. Yes, he was exclusive. He said there was NO OTHER way into heaven but by him. He also said he did not come here to build a kingdom. Look around....isn't that what many are doing today? Building big kingdoms in the name of Christ?

He came here to show the way and everything he did was eye witness worthy. He himself said not to believe anything without 2 or 3 witnesses. What you are speaking about is universalism. You actually believe it doesn't matter we just all get to go to heaven?

What I see really...is that everyone wants the Kingdom, but doesn't want the King. Big problem.

I agree that Jesus did exist, but have serious doubt about the Virgin Mary and God being the father of Jesus. I am more comfortable with Jesus being a wonderful profit. Born a male child to an unwed mother. He had the ability and desire to study the writings of those preceding him and the converting them into a kind more modern interpretation that worked better than the OT scriptures. I put him on a parallel with Mohamed. I also feel that both Muslims and Christians will find the afterlife. To clarify, I personally think this heaven thing is all smoke and mirrors but I also believe if you follow any of the major religions, you will find peace and comfort in this world.

Actually they do have mixed groups, Golfingnut, but not sure if there is one in your area. I think you would be pleasantly surprised to see the way both women and men are viewed and respected in this particular organization. Whatever you decide, best wishes to you, Golfingnut.

Thanks for the info! Is this study for both men and women? If (no, when) we ever get moved down there, I would love to be able to go to a study with my husband.

Ok, Golfingnut..I have a question for ya. You believe he existed and that he was a prophet. But,did you know he made claims of deity? He claimed to be God. That's why he was killed. So now it has to come down to do you believe this prophet or not?

Also, do you know that Jesus rose from the dead but Mohammed did not? So how can they be compared? Mohammed never claimed to be God. Jesus did.

Did you know that thousands of years before the prophets in the OT said to look for one who would be born of a Virgin (that would be the sign he was the right one) and that he would be the Messiah to save the world from their sins?

Actually, some of the New Testament books were written by people who knew Jesus and witnessed his life. Some were in his inner circle, The Apostles. Notable among eyewitnesses would be "James, the brother of Jesus" and Peter. Matthew and John were also eyewitnesses who authored New Testament books, contrary to your assertion that none of his immediate followers wrote anything down. The fact that they were believers does not invalidate the fact that they were writing about an historical figure.

A principal non-Christian source is Flavius Josephus, a Romanized Jewish historian. He wrote, "About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders." [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]

Elsewhere in this book, Josephus also reported the execution of St. John the Baptist [XVIII 5.2] and St. James the Just [XX 9.1], even referring to James as "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ."

Next the Roman historian, Tacitus, who is respected by modern scholars for historical accuracy, wrote in 115 A.D. about Christ and His Church:

The author of the denomination was Christ[us] who had been executed in Tiberius time by the Procurator Pontius Pilate. The pestilent superstition, checked for a while, burst out again, not only throughout Judea...but throughout the city of Rome also... [Tacitus, Annals, XV 44]

Interestingly, Jesus is mentioned in the Koran. His virgin birth is affirmed and he is considered a venerated prophet. They simply deny his deity. In the Koran Jesus is referred to in over ninety verses in fifteen surahs. Islam corroborates that Jesus was born to a virgin, was sinless, performed miracles, and was superior to other prophets. Yet, Islam teaches that Jesus was no more than a prophet. It denies the central message of Christianity by denying Jesus' divinity, crucifixion, and resurrection.

Jesus as a historical figure is firmly established.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, (probably unnecessary phrase), but don't southern Baptists require that one be baptized in their church in order to be a member, even if they have previously been baptized in another Christian denomination? If so, doesn't that imply that baptism in other churches is invalid according to their beliefs? If that is the case, how do you feel about all those wasted years, and the ones you left behind, in those other denominations that you now must belief are destined to not be saved?

Well, John Kennedy died in the 60s. Some of the closest eyewitnesses to his life and his death, the Secret Service agents assigned to protect him in Dallas, are just now breaking their silence and producing books about not only the event of his death but also their relationships with the family members.

I know and respect these agents, some of whom are friends of mine. Why would I not consider their accounts trustworthy?

While on the subject I'll recommend a couple of the books:

In the Secret Service: The True Story of the Man Who Saved President Reagan's Life by Jerry Parr and Carolyn Parr.

Jerry was the agent who pushed President Reagan into the limousine when he was shot.

The Kennedy Detail: JFK's Secret Service Agents Break Their Silence by Gerald Blaine, Lisa McCubbin and Clint Hill.

Clint Hill was the agent who jumped on the back of the Kennedy limousine in Dallas and pushed Jackie back into the car.


Five Days in November by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. Clint was one of the most psychologically tortured of the agents present that day and went through severe depression afterward.


Mrs. Kennedy and Me by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. When Clint was assigned to protect Mrs. Kennedy he considered it a demotion. Later he came to treasure his relationship with her and her children.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm just demonstrating that the passage of time does not mean that eyewitnesses cannot write meaningful memoirs decades later.

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I have a suggestion to those that are seeking the truth of God's divine plan for ALL mankind, "ask Him"! Read Matthew 7:7-9; Luke 12:31; Hebrews 11:6 "And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him."

No, SB do NOT believe that. If they did, I wouldn't be there. Some groups do tho. One baptism is all that is necessary and it's ONLY a witness or profession of faith. You may be thinking infant baptism vs adult or believer's baptism tho. SB would NOT recognize an infant baptism because it's not seen anywhere in Scripture. But even so you can still worship even if you were baptized as an infant. They would just insist you be baptized in order to join

Many of the groups I was involved in were cults and I would say are actually dangerous..spiritually speaking. Nice, nice people but very deceived. I don't believe any of my past years were wasted in these "off" groups though. I have so much knowledge in what they believe in and have been very instrumental in helping others wade thru the muck comparing these religions with what Scripture actually teaches.

Yes, both men and women and many couples go. It's well worth it. It's every Tuesday at 10 but most get there after 9:15 or so for coffee and cookies beforehand. Gets over about 11:15.

People are saved by their individual, personal faith in Christ, not by doing the practices/ordinances nor the doctrines/dogmas of denominations, nondenominationals, nor by the faith of their families.

The Word of God is read and proclaimed in most Christian churches, and it accomplishes what God sends it to do with those who surrender to God's authority....and believe Him....regardless of other "stuff" that is preached/required.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
--Romans 10:17

Originally Posted by eweissenbach View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, (probably unnecessary phrase), but don't southern Baptists require that one be baptized in their church in order to be a member, even if they have previously been baptized in another Christian denomination? If so, doesn't that imply that baptism in other churches is invalid according to their beliefs? If that is the case, how do you feel about all those wasted years, and the ones you left behind, in those other denominations that you now must belief are destined to not be saved?


Response by Dawn Marie: No, SB do NOT believe that. If they did, I wouldn't be there. Some groups do tho. One baptism is all that is necessary and it's ONLY a witness or profession of faith. You may be thinking infant baptism vs adult or believer's baptism tho. SB would NOT recognize an infant baptism because it's not seen anywhere in Scripture. But even so you can still worship even if you were baptized as an infant. They would just insist you be baptized in order to join

Many of the groups I was involved in were cults and I would say are actually dangerous..spiritually speaking. Nice, nice people but very deceived. I don't believe any of my past years were wasted in these "off" groups though. I have so much knowledge in what they believe in and have been very instrumental in helping others wade thru the muck comparing these religions with what Scripture actually teaches.

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I wouldn't presume to "improve" on Dawn Marie's response, but I would like to add my perspective.

1. Southern Baptists do not believe that you must be baptized to be saved.

2. Each Southern Baptist church is an independent, autonomous entity, operating at various levels of "congregational" self-government. They may or may not belong to a local, regional association and/or the Southern Baptist Convention. However, membership in these organizations does not give either the power to dictate how their church is governed.

3. In that light, each church may set its own standards for membership. A profession of trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the payment to God for their sins is mandatory. If they have previously been baptized in a church of "like faith and manner" they may become a member of the church without being baptized again. If their baptism was otherwise, such as infant baptism, they must be baptized in order to become a member of the local congregation. Baptism is seen simply as a public expression of their faith.

This may be a poor analogy, but think of it as similar to the initiation rites of a fraternity.

4. The baptism requirement does not, as you assume, imply that prior baptisms were "invalid" because Southern Baptists do not believe that baptism confers salvation. Prior baptisms were simply initiations into other denominations. Southern Baptists accept the salvation, with a notable exception, of virtually all Christian faiths where trust in Jesus is the central tenet.

5. What is the exception? you wonder. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have a view of the personhood of Jesus which is contrary to scripture. Without going too much into detail I'll just say that Mormons believe that God created multiple worlds and each world has people living on it. They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.

6. And, of course, Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. They deny that Jesus is divine. They believe Jesus was "God's first creation" which means he is not God.

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In my 30s a few of my best friends were Jehovah's Witnesses and I have many cousins in Tampa who are active in that faith to this day. They are highly principled and nice people.

Some of my closest friends in the Secret Service are Mormons. They are kind, ethical people. When I was on the advance team for President Nixon's visit to the Mormon Tabernacle I worked with security personnel there and instantly developed several friendships.

However, sadly, I think their theology is mistaken.

It does not make me happy, but I am not in control.

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I agree. All this other stuff I've been posting is just commentary on history.

Denominations meet various individual needs, but personal faith in Christ is central to Christianity.

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Thanks Carl..you are so thorough and analytical. You are, of course, quite correct in all your points except for one....you "think" their theology is mistaken?

I had an interesting encounter with a JW on a plane. We didn't really begin speaking until nearly the flight end but then it got quite animated and rapid going from one subject matter to another after we answered her with Scripture. After a layover, my husband and I boarded the next plane and lo and behold here comes this same lady on, now another plane, and sat in the same exact seat as the prior plane. All three of us together as before in the same exact seating arrangement. Never happened before nor since and I've been on many trips. We were all in shock but were able to continue the conversation immediately after already making introductions 2 hrs earlier. Turns out she was on her way to a JW convention in Maine.

Time literally flew by as we hit one issue after another. A few days later, 2 JW's (men) came knocking at our host's home. In 20 years of living there they had never had this happen. The two men had more than they could bargain with. We had already been thru every single issue they brought up after our chance meeting on the plane. One of them said that in all his 25 years of knocking on doors he had never met anyone that knew the bible as much as they did (or better). He kept saying "we're done here" and "we need to leave." After about an hour or so they practically ran out the door. They could not get out fast enough.

How's that for divine intervention? :)

I "think" was just a figure of speech.

Like saying "I think I'll have lunch now," when I know I'm going to have lunch now.

OR

"I think Shakespeare was a great playwright," when I know that Shakespeare was a great playwright.

:coolsmiley:

LOL..you know I was just pulling your leg right? I was kind of thinking of 1 John 5:13 about "knowing."

That's ALL Josephus wrote about Jesus...and did you know he wasn't alive when Jesus was? He was born in 37CE. And I bet you also don't know he didn't write that until late in his life? He wrote his "history" from memory. Did you know he was a Roman enemy and surrendered? Besides religious writings...that's all there is. Jesus just isn't mentioned outside Christianity...by anyone.

I'll also tell you...the George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King David, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Caesar etc. you read about in the history books...are NOT the real people. History is embellished.

No, the NT was NOT written by the disciples...all unaffiliated scholars agree most of the books of the NT are anonymous, not written by those whoms names they carry.

You need to expand the source for your studies. I believe you're suffering from confirmation bias.

That's just it...according to the stories, very few Jews believed Jesus WAS the Messiah. Most said he didn't fulfill all the requirements. Actually nobody did until Paul comes around (Paul NEVER met Jesus) and begins to feverishly promote Jesus and Christianity.

No, his Apostles did not write those books of the NT.

XVIII 3.2 is the ONLY mention of Jesus by Josephus. And as I said earlier...it was hearsay, read it again, it's hearsay...he HEARS about a man named Jesus. He wasn't born when Jesus was alive. And he's ALL you've got outside Christian writers who mention Jesus.

Tacitus wrote almost 100 years later...you call that PROOF? Really?

Muhammad started Islam in 610CE...that's almost 600 years after the fact...this is more "proof"?

That's the problem there isn't ANYTHING written by ANYONE during the time of Jesus.

What does this have to do with my question? Jesus wasn't Caesar, if Caesar was killed, we'd know about it.

So Carl, what REALLY happened on that day in Dallas? lone gunman? A lone gunman who was conveniently killed at the police station? Why is everything still sealed? And no, all the sealed evidence hasn't been released, why? Because it was sealed. It's probably been destroyed...it's been 50 years already...I'm sure we'll get an "opps, we can't find it" the day of the unsealing. Like Giraldo and Al Capone's vault.