[Janet1946]

Excellent post. Thank you.

[jimbomaybe]

Originally Posted by Blueblaze

It goes back much farther than fishes becoming mammals. It goes all the way back to stars becoming planets, and atoms becoming stars.

If the 98% DNA we share with chimpanzees isn't enough to prove that, if we didn't evolve from chimps, we at least had a common ancestor, than what's your explanation? Random chance? God "poofed" everything into existence simultaneously 6,000 years ago because you think your holy book says so? (It doesn't, by the way). Do you have any inkling of the number of atoms involved? Try to imagine the trillions upon trillions of coincidences that would be necessary for that to happen! And then try to explain why a significant portion of your DNA is also identical to that found in insects and jellyfish!

The question isn't whether evolution is a fact. The question is how all of those coincidences could happen without a plan. Evolution doesn't disprove God, any more than understanding how an airplane works disproves flight. The astounding level of coincidence necessary for evolution to work is the best evidence that, not only does He exist, he's the ultimate engineer!

Why do people expect a book written for people living when Ramses II was alive to be scientifically accurate 3,000 years later? A holy book, even one dictated by God himself, doesn't have to be scientifically precise in order to be true. You've heard of parables, right? The creation story wasn't written to explain quantum mechanics. It was written to explain why people behave so badly. Even the story itself isn't contextually consistent on its face. Where did Cain and Able's wives come from? Not important to the story, so it's not included -- just like the details of how God created Man from dust -- star dust, over about 4 billion years.

"The question isn't whether evolution is a fact. The question is how all of those coincidences could happen without a plan. Evolution doesn't disprove God, any more than understanding how an airplane works disproves flight. The astounding level of coincidence necessary for evolution to work is the best evidence that, not only does He exist, he's the ultimate engineer!"
Evolution is its own plan, what works survives a little bit better for any number of reasons, the ultimate pragmaticism, no prejudices, if there is a guiding force directing why doodle bug around for hundreds of thousands of years?

[Retiredsteve]

Originally Posted by DAVES

Taught in schools? "Science is fact not fictional theories." So much Science taught in schools is not fact but SPUN current thought. We all know the earth is flat and the planets revolve around the earth. Much of education is indoctrination. Few teachers are educated enough, bright enough or have the time to discuss these things.

You flat Earthers have followers all around the world

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by jimbomaybe

"The question isn't whether evolution is a fact. The question is how all of those coincidences could happen without a plan. Evolution doesn't disprove God, any more than understanding how an airplane works disproves flight. The astounding level of coincidence necessary for evolution to work is the best evidence that, not only does He exist, he's the ultimate engineer!"
Evolution is its own plan, what works survives a little bit better for any number of reasons, the ultimate pragmaticism, no prejudices, if there is a guiding force directing why doodle bug around for hundreds of thousands of years?

Assuming that God does exist and is the ultimate engineer and is perfection personified and has set up the perfect plan, then it is implied that He/She/It/They (father, son, holy ghost) are infallible. If the plan is infallible then there is zero error and all things are going exactly according to plan. Creatures live and die, galaxies collide, all according to the perfect plan. Then, you or I in a moment of desperation or distress cry out to God to grant our prayer. The unmitigated gall! To dare to ask God, the creator, to change His perfect plan for the universe because we are upset. Even if you get what you want, it is only because it was destined to happen anyway. And, you or I were destined/required as part of the plan to make the request.
Imagine God's perfect plan as a billiard shot that started with the big bang. We, like particles on the billiard balls are just along for the ride. We may imagine free will, but it is only illusion. Like actors on the great stage of life, we go through the motions without a choice of what we will do next. We can't recognize it as we are immersed in and lost in our rolls. God created the plan and our fates, along with the fate of the universe has already been dictated. Those who believe, have no choice but to believe. Likewise, those who don't believe, have no choice but to not believe.

[Worldseries27]

Originally Posted by eldiablojoe

what i believe is that a being many times more "evolved" than us, so much as to appear "god-like" created a set of rules (scientific laws) to govern his creation and put us and it in motion to go on for many millennia.

this being would have to be older than the universe, outside of the universe,and who created him?

[MrLonzo]

Amazing how much dogs have evolved just in my lifetime. In the 1950s, a bunch of mutts roamed the streets. Some of the breeds today are almost like a different species! Think of what can happen in 500 million years...

[jimbomaybe]

Originally Posted by Worldseries27

this being would have to be older than the universe, outside of the universe, and who created him?

Exactly,, I posted the same question to the "the watch must have a watch maker" believers and have gotten no answer, perhaps because there is none, perhaps at some point we will see a strained convoluted explanation ??

[dhdallas]

Originally Posted by Rich Iwaszko

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.

The earth is flat too.

[Lindsyburnsy]

Faith is not fact either so it should not be taught either.

[Rich Iwaszko]

Faith is not taught in schools...........

[Ptmckiou]

Originally Posted by jimbomaybe

Exactly,, I posted the same question to the "the watch must have a watch maker" believers and have gotten no answer, perhaps because there is none, perhaps at some point we will see a strained convoluted explanation ??

Okay, I’ll take a stab at this. Hang on to your britches…

Who created the watchmaker?

The laws of physics state, energy can’t be created or destroyed, but only ch age molecular form. So, if God is “intelligent energy” then God has always been, and will always be. That it further. Get out of 3D where energy creates all matter (everything being an aspect of “God”). Outside of 3D you lose the aspect of “time”. Time doesn’t exist, because to “measure” time you must have a “here” and a “there” for measurement. When you are outside of 3D there is only one eternal moment …the “now”. View time on a vertical staff, with an infinite amount of levels to it. In reality, you move through time, time does not move. Everything is happening within that one eternal moment, always changing, always evolving. Thereby, through the laws of physics you can explain the “watchmaker “ having always been, and will always be because time is an illusion. God (Source ) is the universal consciousness (eternal intelligent energy) of which everything comes from, because everything in 3D is made of matter, and matter is made from energy….aka Source of All…or also known as God.

[YeOldeCurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by skarra

Like politics, Religion should also be banned on this board.

Nothing productive comes from it

But when expressing ideas and opinions is banned, the only result is destructive. Truth often is not black and white -- it evolves.

[kendi]

[QUOTE=Rich Iwaszko;2126616]hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.[/QUOTE

Science is an ongoing process of discovery. We never know all the facts.

[Chee-Chee]

No. Theories do not prove or disprove anything. They provide a framework for understanding our experience and for predicting future experiences. The Big Bang theory posits certain aspects of the early evolution of the observable universe. It does not stipulate how this early stage began, or what may have caused or preceded it. Its correctness or incorrectness has nothing to do with God.

The validity or non-validity of God is not amenable to treatment through theories of physics, because it is inherently a metaphysical question. If the notion of God is valid, and in particular, if God is the Cause of “everything,” then God lies entirely outside of “everything.”

There are many aspects of religious belief that are amenable to scientific study. The ideas, for example, that the earth was literally created in a few days, or that Adam “appeared” alone and that Eve was created out of a rib from Adam, are all clearly invalidated by geological and related studies. They can be read as allegories, but they cannot be read as science. Likewise, the ideas that God has a physical form, or that human bodies can rise into the sky and reappear later on, are clearly contrary to both scientific truth and common sense. Insistence on a literal interpretation of Scripture is a great handicap to any attempt to reconcile religion with science.

However, science, in the sense of the physical (or material) sciences, has not shown the ability to deal with the entirety of human life. In the late 1800s, it was thought that science had entirely resolved the questions of physical existence, and that soon, all human problems would likewise be solved through the application of laws of physics and chemistry. It was also hoped that all of mathematics could be reduced to formulaic solutions. All of these suppositions have proven false. The discoveries made through application of the theories of relativity and quantum mechanics demonstrated that physical existence is far more complicated than previously imagined. The work of Godel showed that mathematics cannot be reduced to formalisms. The experience of the 20th and early 21st centuries has shown that science alone cannot create a satisfactory world. Wars have persisted, or been replaced by terrorism and crime. The attempts to use chemical and electrical means to solve psychological problems have not succeeded in improving our overall mental health. Our environment is heading for disaster, and the plight of the poor has not improved; indeed, the disparity between rich and poor has increased.

Strange as it may seem to the modern, scientifically educated person, religion has, throughout recorded history, been the source of the advancement of civilization. At present, we do not see that; instead, religion often seems to be a means of retarding progress. However, if we take a longer view, we see that human history has a progressive cyclical pattern. Every thousand years, more or less, a “dark age” occurs, followed after some time by an age of progress and a time of peace and stability. This stage degenerates again into darkness. If we look in more detail, we see that religion also follows this pattern, and that, in fact, the religious developments precede the sociological developments. This leads to a reasonable conjecture that religion, like science, is actually a driving force in the development of civilization. Science drives our material progress, and religion drives our societal progress. This, in turn, leads to the conjecture that the concept of God is a valid construct, and that the teachings of God, known as religion, are, like science, a means of advancement of the human world.

In short, the Big Bang theory is a fruitful theory for cosmology and our understanding of the physical relationship of our tiny planet to the immensity of the observable universe. It also gives us room to imagine other, disconnected observable universes. It does not, however, help us to decipher the fundamental riddles of existence: Is there a “Why” to it all? Is there a “reason” for existence? Is there something beyond the physical universe? These are all questions that must be addressed through other means than the study of physics and mathematics.

Here is one religious explanation of the source of existence, written in the late 1800s, that in no way conflicts with any findings of modern science

[fdpaq0580]

I, for one, am enjoying the various thoughts, ideas, points of view expressed in the "deep thinker" threads. Keep 're coming.