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Facts
  #1  
Old 07-01-2019, 06:04 PM
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fw102807 fw102807 is offline
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Default Facts

I believe “facts” can be manipulated, misinterpreted or just plain wrong. “Facts” are simply a conclusion based on a certain set of evidence. This evidence can be accurate or not based on how it is collected and by whom. “Fact” is not equal to absolute truth and considering all ideas, opinions and possibilities is the basis for critical thinking. I am tired of having these “facts” rammed down my throat by people who are intolerant, closed minded and think they are infallible. I am using a link to support this idea. If you don’t like it I really don’t care. It’s my opinion and I am entitled to it. Facts are not always more important than opinions: here's why

  #2  
Old 07-01-2019, 06:41 PM
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Taltarzac725 Taltarzac725 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fw102807 View Post
I believe “facts” can be manipulated, misinterpreted or just plain wrong. “Facts” are simply a conclusion based on a certain set of evidence. This evidence can be accurate or not based on how it is collected and by whom. “Fact” is not equal to absolute truth and considering all ideas, opinions and possibilities is the basis for critical thinking. I am tired of having these “facts” rammed down my throat by people who are intolerant, closed minded and think they are infallible. I am using a link to support this idea. If you don’t like it I really don’t care. It’s my opinion and I am entitled to it. Facts are not always more important than opinions: here's why
You seem to be becoming a philosopher. Take a look at some of David Hume's writings. Top 10 David Hume Quotes - BrainyQuote

David Hume - Wikipedia

Hume Texts Online

Quote:
It's when we start working together that the real healing takes place... it's when we start spilling our sweat, and not our blood. David Hume
Read more at: David Hume - It's when we start working together that the...

Last edited by Taltarzac725; 07-01-2019 at 06:47 PM.
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  #3  
Old 07-01-2019, 07:46 PM
Bucco Bucco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fw102807 View Post
I believe “facts” can be manipulated, misinterpreted or just plain wrong. “Facts” are simply a conclusion based on a certain set of evidence. This evidence can be accurate or not based on how it is collected and by whom. “Fact” is not equal to absolute truth and considering all ideas, opinions and possibilities is the basis for critical thinking. I am tired of having these “facts” rammed down my throat by people who are intolerant, closed minded and think they are infallible. I am using a link to support this idea. If you don’t like it I really don’t care. It’s my opinion and I am entitled to it. Facts are not always more important than opinions: here's why
You seem quite full of anger, and in your anger are talking past the point I try to make.

I am not a philosopher, and that seems to be your direction. And your link, quite frankly was interesting, but if in anyway it is meant to dissuade me, or anyone from wanting facts or searching for truth, it falls seriously short.

On this forum, and in the real world it is quite simple to recognize lying or manipulation of truth. Can we discuss philosophy of truth ? Certainly but that has never, nor can I envision it ever being discussed.

You speak to people "ramming" things down your throat, while I consider it human courtesy that if you are giving your OPINION, based on an occurrence or a settlement, then as a reader I certainly deserve to know about the occurrence, etc. I hope I do not fall short when discussing REAL things, I supply from where I got my basis for an opinion.

You are over thinking the common practice of lying, or deceiving.

If you post on here that PERSON A did not say this or that, and I produce a video of that person saying it, then you lied to everyone in the forum. Of course, we find in today's age that those videos can and are manipulated and that is a caution. If you say something, and it is your opinion on something or somebody, in my world you should supply what generated your opinion. That is civil discourse, and disagreements are based on differing OPINIONS. There can be no civil discourse if based on lies.....flat out impossible

I would always avoid someone who lies, and that is always my premise. I have NEVER questioned an opinion based on truth, disagreed maybe, but never questioned or dismissed.

I may be misunderstanding you, and not sure why you, or anyone would be angry as you seem to be because someone asked you to back up comments.

I am not putting words in your mouth, but you seem to be giving carte blanc approval to misstate things, or lie to people simply because of some philosophical feeling about defining truth.

I can say, with almost 100% accuracy that a liar is a liar. Whether lying by omission or flat out telling things that are not true.

The discussion you are trying to begin is philosophical, and well beyond me. I am sorry for whatever sparked such anger, but I have found in my 80 years that lying is lying.....most know it, and you "appear" to be trying to legitimize someone lying to you.

If this is meant to be philosophical rather than simple human behavior, I apologize. I subscribe to the philosophy of KISS.....and still, perhaps naively that A lie is an assertion that is believed to be false, typically used with the purpose of deceiving someone.
  #4  
Old 07-01-2019, 08:05 PM
Jazuela Jazuela is offline
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Opinion: I love the color of the sky.
Fact: The sky is blue.

Opinion: This dress makes me look fat.
Fact: I am fat.

Opinion: green-eyed people are all lazy.
Fact: there is no biological difference in inherent motivational behavior between green-eyed people and people with any other color eyes.

Opinion: The guy who rammed his golf cart into the Walmart glass door should be in jail.
Fact: The guy who rammed his golf cart into the pickup truck had a defective gas pedal. He committed no crime but he will ultimately be held responsible for the cost to replace the door.

Opinion: I like bees.
Fact: Bees are insects.
Also fact: The person who likes bees in the opinion above is not allergic to bees.

Learn to distinguish between fact and opinion. One is not always necessary in conjunction with the other, but if one is opining about something that can be proven factually correct or incorrect, then one should make some minimal attempt to determine which is which, before expressing one's opinion.
  #5  
Old 07-01-2019, 08:16 PM
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Nucky Nucky is offline
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Max Cady, Cape Fear. Cleaned up for a Family Audience. "I’m better than you all! I can out-learn you. I can out-read you. I can out-think you and I can out-philosophize you! And I’m gonna outlast you. Do you think a couple of whacks to my good-ole-boy guts is gonna get me down? It’s gonna take a lot more’n that, counsellor, to prove you’re better’n me!”

FW you are on the money. Perfecto!
  #6  
Old 07-01-2019, 08:27 PM
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Interesting... so what exactly are ‘facts’? Are they a definition of something like the wavelength of the color blue, or are they something a lot of people agree on such as in Columbus’ time that the earth was flat. Or are you referring to juried articles in academic journals?

In my opinion ‘facts’ are mostly personal perceptions;

From Wiki:
Blind men and the elephant.

Blind Men Appraising an Elephant by Ohara Donshu, Edo Period (early 19th century), Brooklyn Museum
The parable of the blind men and an elephant originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from where it has been widely diffused. However the meaning of the popular proverb differs in other countries. It is a story of a group of blind men, who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and conceptualize what the elephant is like by touching it. Each blind man feels a different part of the elephant's body, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then describe the elephant based on their limited experience and their descriptions of the elephant are different from each other. In some versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.

Last edited by Velvet; 07-01-2019 at 08:36 PM.
  #7  
Old 07-01-2019, 08:37 PM
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FACT (poke here)

Quote:
noun

something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.

something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.

a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.

Law. Often facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence.

OPINION (poke here)

Quote:
noun

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

a personal view, attitude, or appraisal
.

the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.

Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.
a favorable estimate; esteem:

It really shouldn't be that complicated, and wouldn't be, if people really cared and bothered to do even a modicum of research...regarding which is which.
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  #8  
Old 07-01-2019, 08:44 PM
Jazuela Jazuela is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
Interesting... so what exactly are ‘facts’? Are they a definition of something like the wavelength of the color blue, or are they something a lot of people agree on such as in Columbus’ time that the earth was flat. Or are you referring to juried articles in academic journals?

In my opinion ‘facts’ are mostly personal perceptions;

From Wiki:
Blind men and the elephant.

Blind Men Appraising an Elephant by Ohara Donshu, Edo Period (early 19th century), Brooklyn Museum
The parable of the blind men and an elephant originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from where it has been widely diffused. However the meaning of the popular proverb differs in other countries. It is a story of a group of blind men, who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and conceptualize what the elephant is like by touching it. Each blind man feels a different part of the elephant's body, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then describe the elephant based on their limited experience and their descriptions of the elephant are different from each other. In some versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.
The "fact" of this, is that it is, indeed, an elephant. That fact is not disputed, it is a provable thing. Regardless of what the blind men perceive, and how they describe it, it is an elephant. It doesn't stop being an elephant just because three people describe it in three different ways.

The descriptions might even be factual: this thing is alive. It has a leathery surface. It breathes. It has some kind of long appendage that curves around my waist sometimes. All of those things are FACTS, no matter if the person telling you is blind or sighted. They are not opinions. They're facts.

What you are describing is neither fact nor opinion. It's judgment. It's applying or eliminating value to fact, opinion, or both.
  #9  
Old 07-01-2019, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
Interesting... so what exactly are ‘facts’? Are they a definition of something like the wavelength of the color blue, or are they something a lot of people agree on such as in Columbus’ time that the earth was flat. Or are you referring to juried articles in academic journals?

In my opinion ‘facts’ are mostly personal perceptions;

From Wiki:
Blind men and the elephant.

Blind Men Appraising an Elephant by Ohara Donshu, Edo Period (early 19th century), Brooklyn Museum
The parable of the blind men and an elephant originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from where it has been widely diffused. However the meaning of the popular proverb differs in other countries. It is a story of a group of blind men, who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and conceptualize what the elephant is like by touching it. Each blind man feels a different part of the elephant's body, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then describe the elephant based on their limited experience and their descriptions of the elephant are different from each other. In some versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.

That's a good analogy, but maybe not in the way you intended.

In that same Wiki article is this:

Quote:
The parable has been used to illustrate a range of truths and fallacies; broadly, the parable implies that one's subjective experience can be true, but that such experience is inherently limited by its failure to account for other truths or a totality of truth.
The fact that it is an elephant...is still a FACT.

That different people have taken pieces of this fact, to espouse a view that is an incorrect and skewed opinion...is exactly what happens all too often.



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Last edited by ColdNoMore; 07-01-2019 at 08:58 PM.
  #10  
Old 07-01-2019, 08:54 PM
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Yes, my question is “what is the definition of fact”? Is it something that we can independently under identical circumstances replicate over and over again?
And what is the definition of “truth”?
How do we know what we know?

OP a fact can be relative. Take the temperature of your bath water. Relative to the boiling water in the pot, the bath water is cold. Relative to the icy water in the fridge, the bath water is hot. I am guessing that’s how people manipulate “facts”.

Last edited by Velvet; 07-01-2019 at 09:05 PM.
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