[Taltarzac725]

Mark Twain quotations - Facts

Mark Twain and facts.

Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
- quoted by Rudyard Kipling in From Sea to Shining Sea

[ColdNoMore]

Originally Posted by BK001

Snip...>Though each was partly in the right, and all were in the wrong!<...Snip

Which ties into my earlier post where I said... "different people have taken pieces of this fact, to espouse a view that is an incorrect and skewed opinion...."

Had each man been allowed to touch the entire elephant (analogous to researching), their 'opinion' would then more closely align with the fact...that it is an elephant.

It's also a good example of why researching is so important, if someone is actually interested in getting to the truth/fact(s)...versus just going with some "gut-feeling."

Because no matter their opinion (which was based on their limited/incomplete knowledge), the fact that it was an elephant...doesn't change.

[jebartle]

Originally Posted by Bucco

You seem quite full of anger, and in your anger are talking past the point I try to make.

I am not a philosopher, and that seems to be your direction. And your link, quite frankly was interesting, but if in anyway it is meant to dissuade me, or anyone from wanting facts or searching for truth, it falls seriously short.

On this forum, and in the real world it is quite simple to recognize lying or manipulation of truth. Can we discuss philosophy of truth ? Certainly but that has never, nor can I envision it ever being discussed.

You speak to people "ramming" things down your throat, while I consider it human courtesy that if you are giving your OPINION, based on an occurrence or a settlement, then as a reader I certainly deserve to know about the occurrence, etc. I hope I do not fall short when discussing REAL things, I supply from where I got my basis for an opinion.

You are over thinking the common practice of lying, or deceiving.

If you post on here that PERSON A did not say this or that, and I produce a video of that person saying it, then you lied to everyone in the forum. Of course, we find in today's age that those videos can and are manipulated and that is a caution. If you say something, and it is your opinion on something or somebody, in my world you should supply what generated your opinion. That is civil discourse, and disagreements are based on differing OPINIONS. There can be no civil discourse if based on lies.....flat out impossible

I would always avoid someone who lies, and that is always my premise. I have NEVER questioned an opinion based on truth, disagreed maybe, but never questioned or dismissed.

I may be misunderstanding you, and not sure why you, or anyone would be angry as you seem to be because someone asked you to back up comments.

I am not putting words in your mouth, but you seem to be giving carte blanc approval to misstate things, or lie to people simply because of some philosophical feeling about defining truth.

I can say, with almost 100% accuracy that a liar is a liar. Whether lying by omission or flat out telling things that are not true.

The discussion you are trying to begin is philosophical, and well beyond me. I am sorry for whatever sparked such anger, but I have found in my 80 years that lying is lying.....most know it, and you "appear" to be trying to legitimize someone lying to you.

If this is meant to be philosophical rather than simple human behavior, I apologize. I subscribe to the philosophy of KISS.....and still, perhaps naively that A lie is an assertion that is believed to be false, typically used with the purpose of deceiving someone.

[dewilson58]

I have no facts.




I have no opinions.




Where is my cheeseburger.

Originally Posted by Jazuela

Opinion: I love the color of the sky.
Fact: The sky is blue.

Opinion: This dress makes me look fat.
Fact: I am fat.

Opinion: green-eyed people are all lazy.
Fact: there is no biological difference in inherent motivational behavior between green-eyed people and people with any other color eyes.

Opinion: The guy who rammed his golf cart into the Walmart glass door should be in jail.
Fact: The guy who rammed his golf cart into the pickup truck had a defective gas pedal. He committed no crime but he will ultimately be held responsible for the cost to replace the door.

Opinion: I like bees.
Fact: Bees are insects.
Also fact: The person who likes bees in the opinion above is not allergic to bees.

Learn to distinguish between fact and opinion. One is not always necessary in conjunction with the other, but if one is opining about something that can be proven factually correct or incorrect, then one should make some minimal attempt to determine which is which, before expressing one's opinion.

The sky is not always blue, you do not need to stay fat, green eyed people can be lazy, etc. Facts can be based on things that are often fluid. Facts are not absolute truths. In some cases they are not true at all. I do not believe you can rigidly accept all facts as true just because you think the source is credible because that is then opinion. I am not against facts I am against those who belittle others for not believing THEIR facts.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by fw102807

The sky is not always blue, you do not need to stay fat, green eyed people can be lazy, etc. Facts can be based on things that are often fluid. Facts are not absolute truths. In some cases they are not true at all. I do not believe you can rigidly accept all facts as true just because you think the source is credible because that is then opinion. I am not against facts I am against those who belittle others for not believing THEIR facts.

Learn words. I AM..is a very specific condition. It means "what is happening at this very moment, to me, exclusively." I am - my state of existence in the current moment - fat.

Now, if I said "I am always fat" you'd have a point. But I didn't say that. And so your point on that statement is moot, and actually proves the difference between fact and opinion, or fact and lie.

Five years from now, I will be able to look back on this moment and say, "On July 2, 2019 at 8:38 AM EST, I was fat." And that fact would still be factual, and absolute truth. Even if I lose 20 pounds between now and then, that fact is not changeable.

With my statement of "green eyed people are always lazy" - the operative word there is always. Green eyed people are not ALWAYS lazy. They are no more or less often lazy than blue-eyed people.

At the moment I was looking up at the sky, it was blue. At that moment, the existence of the blue sky was factual. In 20 years when meteorologists look back on that moment in that specific location on the planet, and check their records, they will be able to tell you, without any doubt or hesitation, that the sky was, in fact, blue at that moment in that location. It is a fact, it was a fact, it will be a fact, and that fact will never change EVEN IF TOMORROW THE SKY TURNS PURPLE.

Facts are facts. Everything else is opinion, rhetoric, deceit, lie, hyperbole, red herrings, straw men, illusion, misinformation, misunderstanding, ignorance, or fiction (choose any one, or any combination).

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

Which ties into my earlier post where I said... "different people have taken pieces of this fact, to espouse a view that is an incorrect and skewed opinion...."

Had each man been allowed to touch the entire elephant (analogous to researching), their 'opinion' would then more closely align with the fact...that it is an elephant.

It's also a good example of why researching is so important, if someone is actually interested in getting to the truth/fact(s)...versus just going with some "gut-feeling."

Because no matter their opinion (which was based on their limited/incomplete knowledge), the fact that it was an elephant...doesn't change.

The fact - is that it was an elephant. No matter what anyone said ABOUT the elephant - that one fact was unchangeable.

Originally Posted by Jazuela

Learn words. I AM..is a very specific condition. It means "what is happening at this very moment, to me, exclusively." I am - my state of existence in the current moment - fat.

Now, if I said "I am always fat" you'd have a point. But I didn't say that. And so your point on that statement is moot, and actually proves the difference between fact and opinion, or fact and lie.

Five years from now, I will be able to look back on this moment and say, "On July 2, 2019 at 8:38 AM EST, I was fat." And that fact would still be factual, and absolute truth. Even if I lose 20 pounds between now and then, that fact is not changeable.

With my statement of "green eyed people are always lazy" - the operative word there is always. Green eyed people are not ALWAYS lazy. They are no more or less often lazy than blue-eyed people.

At the moment I was looking up at the sky, it was blue. At that moment, the existence of the blue sky was factual. In 20 years when meteorologists look back on that moment in that specific location on the planet, and check their records, they will be able to tell you, without any doubt or hesitation, that the sky was, in fact, blue at that moment in that location. It is a fact, it was a fact, it will be a fact, and that fact will never change EVEN IF TOMORROW THE SKY TURNS PURPLE.

Facts are facts. Everything else is opinion, rhetoric, deceit, lie, hyperbole, red herrings, straw men, illusion, misinformation, misunderstanding, ignorance, or fiction (choose any one, or any combination).

The sky appears blue due to atmospheric conditions, I have no way of knowing whether you are fat or not or whether it was an elephant or not. As I said my objection is to the arrogant people who insist that what they believe to be true should be accepted by everyone.

[Taltarzac725]

How many bones are in an elephant? - Quora

The number of bones in an elephant can vary according to the species and I would assume that some kind of mutation might cause smaller or larger number of bones.

So, even facts in science can vary like how many bones are in an animal.

Science usually sticks pretty much to facts and not opinions.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by fw102807

The sky appears blue due to atmospheric conditions, I have no way of knowing whether you are fat or not or whether it was an elephant or not. As I said my objection is to the arrogant people who insist that what they believe to be true should be accepted by everyone.

This thread, to me anyway, is confusing.

Are we speaking of philosophical discussions of finding the "TRUTH" ?

Or, as this post seems to imply, someone stating that they are right and you are wrong ?

BIG difference. The first has not end to the discussion and my thoughts are not on shades of sky color, nor the number of bones in an elephant.

If your child came home and told you that his or hers GPA was 3.5 and you found that the FACT, which is the real GPA, was 2.3. Is that a lie...in what way can you twist a 2.3 into a 3.5 ? Which is true.

If facts are up to the eye of the beholder, then we are moving to total an complete chaos. An opinion, BASED ON FACTS, is a different story, but not the basic facts.

I am simply not sure if someone told you that their opinion is the truth or whether they insisted their facts were true, and supplied no credible evidence.

These are totally different scenarios.

If you were told that a neighbor said something bad about you, and somehow it was on a recording and played for you and was clearly your neighbors voice and your neighbor identified himself or herself, which is true.

To me, in the two examples I gave, there is no doubt of the FACT or TRUTH. Anything to the contrary is lying and twisting of the truth. Simple as that. Your child should be disciplined for LYING to you about his/her GPA.......Your neighbor should be chastised and confronted, etc on his or her libel.

Pretty simple......your opinion can differ on how or why, but the facts do not change.

NOT sure what the instance you keep referring to is, in context, but that is important, to me anyway. Other wise this is an exercise in circular reasoning, ie. a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.

[ColdNoMore]

Originally Posted by Bucco

This thread, to me anyway, is confusing.

Are we speaking of philosophical discussions of finding the "TRUTH" ?

Or, as this post seems to imply, someone stating that they are right and you are wrong ?

BIG difference. The first has not end to the discussion and my thoughts are not on shades of sky color, nor the number of bones in an elephant.

If your child came home and told you that his or hers GPA was 3.5 and you found that the FACT, which is the real GPA, was 2.3. Is that a lie...in what way can you twist a 2.3 into a 3.5 ? Which is true.

If facts are up to the eye of the beholder, then we are moving to total and complete chaos.

An opinion, BASED ON FACTS, is a different story, but not the basic facts.

I am simply not sure if someone told you that their opinion is the truth or whether they insisted their facts were true, and supplied no credible evidence.

These are totally different scenarios.

If you were told that a neighbor said something bad about you, and somehow it was on a recording and played for you and was clearly your neighbors voice and your neighbor identified himself or herself, which is true.

To me, in the two examples I gave, there is no doubt of the FACT or TRUTH. Anything to the contrary is lying and twisting of the truth. Simple as that. Your child should be disciplined for LYING to you about his/her GPA.......Your neighbor should be chastised and confronted, etc on his or her libel.

Pretty simple......your opinion can differ on how or why, but the facts do not change.

NOT sure what the instance you keep referring to is, in context, but that is important, to me anyway. Other wise this is an exercise in circular reasoning, ie. a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.

The underlined above...nails IT.

[jebartle]

Originally Posted by fw102807

The sky is not always blue, you do not need to stay fat, green eyed people can be lazy, etc. Facts can be based on things that are often fluid. Facts are not absolute truths. In some cases they are not true at all. I do not believe you can rigidly accept all facts as true just because you think the source is credible because that is then opinion. I am not against facts I am against those who belittle others for not believing THEIR facts.

FACTS are NOT fluid, opinions are!!

It was once a widely accepted fact that the earth was flat until someone proved it wasn’t. I do not accept everything that is presented to me as fact without considering all other possibilities first and I put no faith in loud mouth know-it-all’s.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by jebartle

FACTS are NOT fluid, opinions are!!

Yep, and I find it difficult to understand those who wish to complicate it. Discussing the shade of blue in the my, or the bones in an elephant just baffles me, and how it relates

I do not think the Op was referring to any philosophical discussion at all , and this hypothetical talk is not fair to her premise.

Her objection as stated is somebody said that their facts were correct, and hers were not.

That is a confusing scenario, because she has not shared what she means or a context.

There have been rumblings on here because of two things I recall....not sure if this relates, but...

1. Someone posts something as a fact, and another poster asks for some credible source for that fact

2. Some poster posts something and supplies the source to show where this information was sourced.

These two things, for reasons not apparent to me set people off on here.

In either of those cases, the poster is either trying to learn something that has been presented as fact.....or in the second providing that info.

I have to be wrong because all my background in education, business and government has been clear that both are required for any civil discourse.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by fw102807

It was once a widely accepted fact that the earth was flat until someone proved it wasn’t. I do not accept everything that is presented to me as fact without considering all other possibilities first and I put no faith in loud mouth know-it-all’s.

We do agree on "I put no faith in loud mouth know-it-alls"

And we almost agree on not accepting that is presented as fact, but I just would add that some investigation is in order and I will find f I was lied to or do what you seem to obj to to.....ask for credible sources for what is presented. Should not say hat YOU object to, but what many object to.