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  #21  
Old 07-02-2019, 07:43 AM
Jazuela Jazuela is online now
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Originally Posted by fw102807 View Post
The sky is not always blue, you do not need to stay fat, green eyed people can be lazy, etc. Facts can be based on things that are often fluid. Facts are not absolute truths. In some cases they are not true at all. I do not believe you can rigidly accept all facts as true just because you think the source is credible because that is then opinion. I am not against facts I am against those who belittle others for not believing THEIR facts.
Learn words. I AM..is a very specific condition. It means "what is happening at this very moment, to me, exclusively." I am - my state of existence in the current moment - fat.

Now, if I said "I am always fat" you'd have a point. But I didn't say that. And so your point on that statement is moot, and actually proves the difference between fact and opinion, or fact and lie.

Five years from now, I will be able to look back on this moment and say, "On July 2, 2019 at 8:38 AM EST, I was fat." And that fact would still be factual, and absolute truth. Even if I lose 20 pounds between now and then, that fact is not changeable.

With my statement of "green eyed people are always lazy" - the operative word there is always. Green eyed people are not ALWAYS lazy. They are no more or less often lazy than blue-eyed people.

At the moment I was looking up at the sky, it was blue. At that moment, the existence of the blue sky was factual. In 20 years when meteorologists look back on that moment in that specific location on the planet, and check their records, they will be able to tell you, without any doubt or hesitation, that the sky was, in fact, blue at that moment in that location. It is a fact, it was a fact, it will be a fact, and that fact will never change EVEN IF TOMORROW THE SKY TURNS PURPLE.

Facts are facts. Everything else is opinion, rhetoric, deceit, lie, hyperbole, red herrings, straw men, illusion, misinformation, misunderstanding, ignorance, or fiction (choose any one, or any combination).

  #22  
Old 07-02-2019, 07:47 AM
Jazuela Jazuela is online now
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Originally Posted by ColdNoMore View Post
Which ties into my earlier post where I said... "different people have taken pieces of this fact, to espouse a view that is an incorrect and skewed opinion...."

Had each man been allowed to touch the entire elephant (analogous to researching), their 'opinion' would then more closely align with the fact...that it is an elephant.

It's also a good example of why researching is so important, if someone is actually interested in getting to the truth/fact(s)...versus just going with some "gut-feeling."

Because no matter their opinion (which was based on their limited/incomplete knowledge), the fact that it was an elephant...doesn't change.
The fact - is that it was an elephant. No matter what anyone said ABOUT the elephant - that one fact was unchangeable.
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  #23  
Old 07-02-2019, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
Learn words. I AM..is a very specific condition. It means "what is happening at this very moment, to me, exclusively." I am - my state of existence in the current moment - fat.

Now, if I said "I am always fat" you'd have a point. But I didn't say that. And so your point on that statement is moot, and actually proves the difference between fact and opinion, or fact and lie.

Five years from now, I will be able to look back on this moment and say, "On July 2, 2019 at 8:38 AM EST, I was fat." And that fact would still be factual, and absolute truth. Even if I lose 20 pounds between now and then, that fact is not changeable.

With my statement of "green eyed people are always lazy" - the operative word there is always. Green eyed people are not ALWAYS lazy. They are no more or less often lazy than blue-eyed people.

At the moment I was looking up at the sky, it was blue. At that moment, the existence of the blue sky was factual. In 20 years when meteorologists look back on that moment in that specific location on the planet, and check their records, they will be able to tell you, without any doubt or hesitation, that the sky was, in fact, blue at that moment in that location. It is a fact, it was a fact, it will be a fact, and that fact will never change EVEN IF TOMORROW THE SKY TURNS PURPLE.

Facts are facts. Everything else is opinion, rhetoric, deceit, lie, hyperbole, red herrings, straw men, illusion, misinformation, misunderstanding, ignorance, or fiction (choose any one, or any combination).
The sky appears blue due to atmospheric conditions, I have no way of knowing whether you are fat or not or whether it was an elephant or not. As I said my objection is to the arrogant people who insist that what they believe to be true should be accepted by everyone.
  #24  
Old 07-02-2019, 08:20 AM
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Taltarzac725 Taltarzac725 is offline
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How many bones are in an elephant? - Quora

The number of bones in an elephant can vary according to the species and I would assume that some kind of mutation might cause smaller or larger number of bones.

So, even facts in science can vary like how many bones are in an animal.

Science usually sticks pretty much to facts and not opinions.
  #25  
Old 07-02-2019, 09:06 AM
Bucco Bucco is offline
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Originally Posted by fw102807 View Post
The sky appears blue due to atmospheric conditions, I have no way of knowing whether you are fat or not or whether it was an elephant or not. As I said my objection is to the arrogant people who insist that what they believe to be true should be accepted by everyone.
This thread, to me anyway, is confusing.

Are we speaking of philosophical discussions of finding the "TRUTH" ?

Or, as this post seems to imply, someone stating that they are right and you are wrong ?

BIG difference. The first has not end to the discussion and my thoughts are not on shades of sky color, nor the number of bones in an elephant.

If your child came home and told you that his or hers GPA was 3.5 and you found that the FACT, which is the real GPA, was 2.3. Is that a lie...in what way can you twist a 2.3 into a 3.5 ? Which is true.

If facts are up to the eye of the beholder, then we are moving to total an complete chaos. An opinion, BASED ON FACTS, is a different story, but not the basic facts.

I am simply not sure if someone told you that their opinion is the truth or whether they insisted their facts were true, and supplied no credible evidence.

These are totally different scenarios.

If you were told that a neighbor said something bad about you, and somehow it was on a recording and played for you and was clearly your neighbors voice and your neighbor identified himself or herself, which is true.

To me, in the two examples I gave, there is no doubt of the FACT or TRUTH. Anything to the contrary is lying and twisting of the truth. Simple as that. Your child should be disciplined for LYING to you about his/her GPA.......Your neighbor should be chastised and confronted, etc on his or her libel.

Pretty simple......your opinion can differ on how or why, but the facts do not change.

NOT sure what the instance you keep referring to is, in context, but that is important, to me anyway. Other wise this is an exercise in circular reasoning, ie. a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.
  #26  
Old 07-02-2019, 09:09 AM
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ColdNoMore ColdNoMore is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucco View Post
This thread, to me anyway, is confusing.

Are we speaking of philosophical discussions of finding the "TRUTH" ?

Or, as this post seems to imply, someone stating that they are right and you are wrong ?

BIG difference. The first has not end to the discussion and my thoughts are not on shades of sky color, nor the number of bones in an elephant.

If your child came home and told you that his or hers GPA was 3.5 and you found that the FACT, which is the real GPA, was 2.3. Is that a lie...in what way can you twist a 2.3 into a 3.5 ? Which is true.

If facts are up to the eye of the beholder, then we are moving to total and complete chaos.

An opinion, BASED ON FACTS, is a different story, but not the basic facts.

I am simply not sure if someone told you that their opinion is the truth or whether they insisted their facts were true, and supplied no credible evidence.

These are totally different scenarios.

If you were told that a neighbor said something bad about you, and somehow it was on a recording and played for you and was clearly your neighbors voice and your neighbor identified himself or herself, which is true.

To me, in the two examples I gave, there is no doubt of the FACT or TRUTH. Anything to the contrary is lying and twisting of the truth. Simple as that. Your child should be disciplined for LYING to you about his/her GPA.......Your neighbor should be chastised and confronted, etc on his or her libel.

Pretty simple......your opinion can differ on how or why, but the facts do not change.

NOT sure what the instance you keep referring to is, in context, but that is important, to me anyway. Other wise this is an exercise in circular reasoning, ie. a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.
The underlined above...nails IT.
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  #27  
Old 07-02-2019, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fw102807 View Post
The sky is not always blue, you do not need to stay fat, green eyed people can be lazy, etc. Facts can be based on things that are often fluid. Facts are not absolute truths. In some cases they are not true at all. I do not believe you can rigidly accept all facts as true just because you think the source is credible because that is then opinion. I am not against facts I am against those who belittle others for not believing THEIR facts.
FACTS are NOT fluid, opinions are!!
  #28  
Old 07-02-2019, 09:39 AM
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It was once a widely accepted fact that the earth was flat until someone proved it wasn’t. I do not accept everything that is presented to me as fact without considering all other possibilities first and I put no faith in loud mouth know-it-all’s.
  #29  
Old 07-02-2019, 09:44 AM
Bucco Bucco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jebartle View Post
FACTS are NOT fluid, opinions are!!
Yep, and I find it difficult to understand those who wish to complicate it. Discussing the shade of blue in the my, or the bones in an elephant just baffles me, and how it relates

I do not think the Op was referring to any philosophical discussion at all , and this hypothetical talk is not fair to her premise.

Her objection as stated is somebody said that their facts were correct, and hers were not.

That is a confusing scenario, because she has not shared what she means or a context.

There have been rumblings on here because of two things I recall....not sure if this relates, but...

1. Someone posts something as a fact, and another poster asks for some credible source for that fact

2. Some poster posts something and supplies the source to show where this information was sourced.

These two things, for reasons not apparent to me set people off on here.

In either of those cases, the poster is either trying to learn something that has been presented as fact.....or in the second providing that info.

I have to be wrong because all my background in education, business and government has been clear that both are required for any civil discourse.
  #30  
Old 07-02-2019, 09:49 AM
Bucco Bucco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fw102807 View Post
It was once a widely accepted fact that the earth was flat until someone proved it wasn’t. I do not accept everything that is presented to me as fact without considering all other possibilities first and I put no faith in loud mouth know-it-all’s.
We do agree on "I put no faith in loud mouth know-it-alls"

And we almost agree on not accepting that is presented as fact, but I just would add that some investigation is in order and I will find f I was lied to or do what you seem to obj to to.....ask for credible sources for what is presented. Should not say hat YOU object to, but what many object to.
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