FL school shooting - NON-POLITICAL

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  #196  
Old 02-17-2018, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
When our kids were at home and invited to spend the night at a new friends home, I would call the parents and ask them if they kept guns in their house and if they did, I wouldn't let kids spend the night.

I am not a gun owner or an NRA advocate, and I don't look at either as loathsome. I am a realist.

If half the country does not want to give up guns all the rhetoric in the world, the best debaters, the finest arguments are not going to change their minds.

So I say; What else do we have to protect children who are going to go and enter school buildings nine months out of every year until they are eighteen?
I have not heard one single person advocate "giving up guns" at any time.

That is political rhetoric who see it as a platform on which to get elected.

Guns need to be controlled in my opinion. I apply simple common sense as I see it. AR15's simply rip folks body to shreds and thus I have not been satisfied that a weapon like that is necessary.

I understand hunters, personal protection, hobbyists, etc.

Then if we as a country want so many guns, then lets at least scrutinize who has them. Not allowing social security recipients who have been judged to not be able to handle their own affairs by reason of sub par mental capacity should not have guns in my opinion.

This is for smarter and more "gun educated" folks than me, but seems the question is ......can we get our "leaders" to even talk about it.

Republican seem to be loathe to admit any failings with guns and I mention them specifically because they have ALL the control and there will no hearings or action without their support
  #197  
Old 02-17-2018, 03:46 PM
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Good try but your PBS link only addresses the first tip FBI got in which they could not find out who he was, the 2nd tip was from someone who knew Cruz, where he lived, threats made etc etc.

Cruz committed a Felony under Florida state law, so federal law not relevant, many students in many states have been arrested and prosecuted for making school shooting threats. FBI and LEOs blew it and could have stopped a massacre.
So you advocate shutting down the FBI and erasing that defense from the country ?

Or do you advocate a public flogging ?

Or maybe what ????

They go it....they admitted an error was made and did it without calling anyone names....the began their investigation immediately and will take action. If other government agencies and people would do as much we would be much better off

What do you want ?

And do you completely exonerate the local police who visited that house something like 38/39 times over the years ? Police, including the FBI who you feel such disdain for, have a rough job.....lots of tough decisions to make. I blame the shooter for the deaths

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  #198  
Old 02-17-2018, 03:56 PM
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So you advocate shutting down the FBI and erasing that defense from the country ?

Or do you advocate a public flogging ?

Or maybe what ????

They go it....they admitted an error was made and did it without calling anyone names....the began their investigation immediately and will take action. If other government agencies and people would do as much we would be much better off

What do you want ?
What a response........... AND....I don't think public meetings have ever solved a damn thing. This is back to one of your many posts. It is hard to keep up with you.

I don't care what the FBI does, I certainly don't idolize them as a group or vilify them either. We have had some holes shot in our previous beliefs in those G men we so counted on...but the FBI... we could use some retired ones, it would be nice to have someone who has had a life long carry permit to possibly guard our kids in school.

It gets real tricky when some are suggesting all people with mental illness need to do this or that. That is what is hard. WHO is sick enough to be dangerous? Should mental health counselors be designated reporters? Or are they now?
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  #199  
Old 02-17-2018, 04:08 PM
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What a response........... AND....I don't think public meetings have ever solved a damn thing.

I don't care what the FBI does, I certainly don't idolize them as a group or vilify them either. We have had some holes shot in our previous beliefs in those G men we so counted on...but the FBI... we could use some retired ones, it would be nice to have someone who has had a life long carry permit to possibly guard our kids in school.

It gets real tricky when some are suggesting all people with mental illness need to do this or that. That is what is hard. WHO is sick enough to be dangerous?
Got it....screw it and the FBI. No hearings, no nothing. Just attack the FBI or some other agency instead of the guy who killed these kids. Next time a kid gets shot down, tell them we are sorry, but hearings never work (although factually those based on the country and not politics ACTUALLY DO WORK)

Not sure who in government service you idolize but if it is not the FBI, I am sure curious as they have a record of service that cannot be dismissed by you or others. They take attacks and simply continue to do their jobs. One year of attacks, one networks life work and they still continue to tick..the detail on the indictments of the Russians was awesome and scary but that does not seem to count. AND we have yet to hear a factual critique

And as we try to be honest....NO HOLES have been punched in the FBI....numerous, almost daily charges and that is it....ALL of them in the political spectrum, NONE...NONE ever shown to be true in any way except to those on a certain spectrum of politics, BUT NEVER EVER shown to be factual.

And amid daily terrible personal attacks on them, knowing they did nothing wrong, they continue to march on and protect us.

When something factual about them is produced, as it appears the error in not calling Miami, they stand up tall and admit it openly.

Tell me what other government person does that ?

Whomever you idolize in this country, simply compare their resumes. I do resent your implication about we need some FBI to retire which is a political mantra of course, and I challenge you to tell us why they should retire but do it with facts, and not the vicious personal innuendo we hear every night and when we check twitter
  #200  
Old 02-17-2018, 04:31 PM
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I think this post has finally gotten beat down into the ground I hope they have the hearings. I hope they do more to protect the victims and less restrictions in investigating the suspected perpetrators. Somebody correctly asked what the FBI could legally do. They tread a fine line between investigating these suspects and violating their rights. I am just depressed right now since I have a young grandson just starting out in school and it should be a safe place.
  #201  
Old 02-17-2018, 04:54 PM
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I think this post has finally gotten beat down into the ground I hope they have the hearings. I hope they do more to protect the victims and less restrictions in investigating the suspected perpetrators. Somebody correctly asked what the FBI could legally do. They tread a fine line between investigating these suspects and violating their rights. I am just depressed right now since I have a young grandson just starting out in school and it should be a safe place.
  #202  
Old 02-17-2018, 05:10 PM
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I'm the OP. Fascinating how the ToTV folks here took part in a lively discussion - with few antagonistic offshoots to politics or flogging others. A few more of my thoughts after post #1.

1. I am completely sick re these latest events. Personally enough is enough and SOMETHING substantial (whatever can help) MUST be done. These events simply should not continue on in this country. They will NEVER be eradicated, but that should not stop sane caring people to come together and put forth changes.

2. The horses ARE out of the barn, but this continual supply of easily available heavy armament and ammo can be making matters worse. Gun control will never be passed but some type of civil enforcement should be attained. Not a gun owner, but I have always said that if we lived in Orlando or such, I would be... RE gun control - remember the 'bump stock' from Vegas shooter... what happened in DC on that? zip.

3. Imagine if gun control was tightened and limited. A crazed person could simply run a truck down the sidewalk near a school and wipe out 20 kids as well. Or a box cutter at school - carnage too. Crazed will tend to adjust the weapons of choice.

4. Mental issues - a tough nut to crack. What level is enough to hold and question or put away. Is a voiced threat enough? Something must be done to ID the potential crazed, but laws get in the way.

5. Say something... yep. Need a very effective process by law agencies to address this. Admin and funding will be roadblocks.

6. Armed guards at schools, ID cards etc. Nothing will ever be perfect, or even close - but we must have impediments in place.

7. Social media and extreme gaming. The way our society is going this will be a tough nut to crack. No easy answers.

Since 2001 we have done a pretty OK job airport security-wise in the US - but we have been mighty lucky as well. We need international experts (like from Israel) to assess and assist. Anything we do in the country to bolster school security etc will cost bundles of $$$. With all our other budget issues, will our determination stick?

But I do like hearing that THIS school shooting may be the tipping point and pressures on our leaders/lawmakers will be strong.
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  #203  
Old 02-17-2018, 05:10 PM
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Re: killers...if there is a will, there is a way - in spite of the safety measures we undertake.
  #204  
Old 02-17-2018, 05:32 PM
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Re: killers...if there is a will, there is a way - in spite of the safety measures we undertake.
True but we still have to try. It should definitely not be that easy.
  #205  
Old 02-17-2018, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DeanFL View Post
I'm the OP. Fascinating how the ToTV folks here took part in a lively discussion - with few antagonistic offshoots to politics or flogging others. A few more of my thoughts after post #1.

1. I am completely sick re these latest events. Personally enough is enough and SOMETHING substantial (whatever can help) MUST be done. These events simply should not continue on in this country. They will NEVER be eradicated, but that should not stop sane caring people to come together and put forth changes.

2. The horses ARE out of the barn, but this continual supply of easily available heavy armament and ammo can be making matters worse. Gun control will never be passed but some type of civil enforcement should be attained. Not a gun owner, but I have always said that if we lived in Orlando or such, I would be... RE gun control - remember the 'bump stock' from Vegas shooter... what happened in DC on that? zip.

3. Imagine if gun control was tightened and limited. A crazed person could simply run a truck down the sidewalk near a school and wipe out 20 kids as well. Or a box cutter at school - carnage too. Crazed will tend to adjust the weapons of choice.

4. Mental issues - a tough nut to crack. What level is enough to hold and question or put away. Is a voiced threat enough? Something must be done to ID the potential crazed, but laws get in the way.

5. Say something... yep. Need a very effective process by law agencies to address this. Admin and funding will be roadblocks.

6. Armed guards at schools, ID cards etc. Nothing will ever be perfect, or even close - but we must have impediments in place.

7. Social media and extreme gaming. The way our society is going this will be a tough nut to crack. No easy answers.

Since 2001 we have done a pretty OK job airport security-wise in the US - but we have been mighty lucky as well. We need international experts (like from Israel) to assess and assist. Anything we do in the country to bolster school security etc will cost bundles of $$$. With all our other budget issues, will our determination stick?

But I do like hearing that THIS school shooting may be the tipping point and pressures on our leaders/lawmakers will be strong.
I would like to think the school shooting in Parkland is the tipping point, but I don't know. If the 27 students and teachers murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012 couldn't spur action, will this be able to?

As I told one of my coworkers who moved to the US a few years ago, it wasn't always this way in the schools in this country. When I was in elementary and high school in the 1960's-1970's, fearing that one of your classmates would shoot up the school was not even thought of.

Unfortunately, I think it's not a matter of if a similar situation at a school will occur again, but when and where, and that really saddens me.
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  #206  
Old 02-17-2018, 06:21 PM
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I would like to think the school shooting in Parkland is the tipping point, but I don't know. If the 27 students and teachers murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012 couldn't spur action, will this be able to?

As I told one of my coworkers who moved to the US a few years ago, it wasn't always this way in the schools in this country. When I was in elementary and high school in the 1960's-1970's, fearing that one of your classmates would shoot up the school was not even thought of.

Unfortunately, I think it's not a matter of if a similar situation at a school will occur again, but when and where, and that really saddens me.
The kids want to change things and seem determined to do so. Unfortunately, there will be more shootings but this will only make these children more determined to stop things as much as they can.

Many seem to want to help them too.

Does a Celebration of Life for a 14 year old make much sense??? That is what a pair of Villagers grandparents are attending or will within a week or so.
  #207  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:02 AM
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SOMETHING must be done. Some measures must be taken by our leaders. Pressure must be put on them to address key issues. Complacency and doing nothing will ensure continuance of these horrible events.

I am heartened that some of our youth has spoken and perhaps will create a groundswell of pressure. It seems to me that this age 15-30 population has the will and energy to organize and put extreme pressure on the folks in charge to actually make changes. They will be/are a large voting group as well - which is key. I personally am not one that condones walkouts, marches etc - BUT... whatever it takes. This issue will never be completely erased from our open free society, but doing NOTHING ensures it can and will continue.

Hope they don't just focus solely on guns - but ALL the elements that impact this scourge of violence. Here's a few paragraphs from an interesting article>



"We are the students, we are the victims, we are change, fight gun violence now!" student organizers wrote for one of the planned events. "High School students across the U.S.A, the way to fight back is here. There has been too much complacency on the part of politicians when it comes to gun violence. The time to act is now!"

We will be the last mass shooting': Florida students want to be tipping point in gun debate


The first event is planned for March, 14, which would mark one month since the South Florida shooting. It's being planned in part by the Women's March organizers to protest inaction from lawmakers on gun-control legislation.

"We are not safe at school. We are not safe in our cities and towns," the Facebook event reads. "Congress must take meaningful action to keep us safe and pass federal gun reform legislation that address the public health crisis of gun violence."

The event calls for students and teachers to walk out of their schools at 10 a.m. local time for 17 minutes, to honor the 17 lives lost in Florida.

Another walkout is planned on April 20, which will mark the 19th year since the Columbine High School massacre in Colorado that left 13 dead.
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  #208  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:39 AM
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There is an interesting article in the other site about a man who lives in the Villages and was a school administrator when a flight with 16 kids and their 5 adult chaperones went down. They were from his school.

Quote:
His nightmare is not due to a deranged killer, but from the explosion and crash of Trans World Airlines’ Flight 800 over the Atlantic, about 12 minutes after takeoff from New York’s Kennedy International Airport, July 17, 1996. All 230 people on-board perished in America’s third-deadliest aviation accident.
As many know my high school English teacher's daughter, Michelle Mitchell, was murdered on my birthday (2-24) when I was a Junior at Earl Wooster High School in Reno, Nevada in 1976. I was a favorite of the teacher and that family gave me very small Memorial Scholarship in her name. I had been taking correspondence courses to skip my Senior year so I used that small scholarship at the University of Nevada, Reno for my Freshmen year. You never get over traumatic experiences especially ones that are repeated in the media for years. And the murder occurred on my birthday which also made and makes it very hard to just push aside.

I did get four degrees though and helped maybe 40 prisoners with their legal matters as a student then Student Co-Director at Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners (LAMP) Minnesota Correctional Facility--Stillwater so this baggage did not slow me down all that much. It actually made me more determined to be objective about things and dig into matters as well as I could given the resources available. Law school trained me to be critical. And try to look at things from many perspectives. I was at the U of MN while in LAMP.

The community's need for closure did lead to the wrongful conviction of a paranoid schizophrenic woman, Cathy Woods, who had confessed falsely to the murder of Michelle Mitchell. She did at this at the time to get a better room in the mental institution she was in located in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. This was around 1979.

I had immersed myself in reading Philosophy and History as well as great literature during my stay at the University of Nevada, Reno while getting BAs in each of these.

I have been contacting through Facebook the last four years or so some of the former students from Wooster High School from around this time and some have prospered.

I hope that the students affected by the Valentine's Day shooting can use this terrible tragedy to make the changes needed. The solutions probably will be very complicated if they are to work but I hope that the wisdom you see in many Villagers can be applied.

Last edited by Taltarzac725; 02-18-2018 at 11:34 AM.
  #209  
Old 02-18-2018, 12:38 PM
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As long as political identity continues to be the priority, there will be no more done after this shooting fades, than there has been for all the others.

The political agendas, special interests and minority priorities are all stacked against making any progress.
Until or unless that changes, there will be no progress made. It is the elephant in the room that everybody pretends is not there.
  #210  
Old 02-18-2018, 12:49 PM
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As long as political identity continues to be the priority, there will be no more done after this shooting fades, than there has been for all the others.

The political agendas, special interests and minority priorities are all stacked against making any progress.
Until or unless that changes, there will be no progress made. It is the elephant in the room that everybody pretends is not there.
Politics and money $$$$$$$$$
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