[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Tvflguy

Political? C’mon give it a break.

Really, let’s see what could have happened about two years ago to change the source of oil, in some peoples minds, I know, it’s okay for those comments, as long as no one calls them out.

Yeah, so, give me a break

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

The tax credit is an incentive to the buyer of an EV, but the taxpayers are forced to pay for the credit.

Taxes and tax spending are and always have been a form of social engineering. Whether they are good or bad is a matter of opinion.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC

Think you are stretching what political is allowed and what is not. On some level everything is political

Sadly, true, very true. Guess I am a little sensitive since my last vacation only an even less political statement. But, I a, sure degree is in the eye of the beholder.

It was just annoying how a perfectly civil conversation of differing views was interrupted by something with little relavence.

[Spectreron]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

As I understand it, whether or not you itemize has nothing to do with the $7500 EV tax credit. It is a credit deducted directly from your total tax obligation. But, you must have a tax obligation for the year to get the credit. So, as long as you paid at least $7500 in Federal income tax, you will fully benefit from the credit. If your tax obligation is less than $7500, you can only claim the amount of your tax obligation. However, there is a possibility that the car manufacturers will price the vehicles higher because they are aware of the tax credit you will receive.

The tax credit is a refundable credit, so you would get it all. The credit starting in 2024 will be applied directly at the dealer and will come off the bottom line. Manufacturers can't price the cars much higher, they are already close to the allowed price ceilings.

[Tvflguy]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Really, let’s see what could have happened about two years ago to change the source of oil, in some peoples minds, I know, it’s okay for those comments, as long as no one calls them out.

Yeah, so, give me a break

Yep, really. Just as some poster said a bit ago, almost anything can be termed political. Mention “oil” and a bit of history, and that’s taboo?

I’m glad the Mods let the leash slack a bit here and there. At least they’re not ultra-sensitive I guess.

I’m all for EVs and transitioning to Greener energy. We must do it wisely and methodically without SO negatively impacting our economic future in the USA. We will not be strong if we bankrupt ourselves. We need common sense on this and other critical issues. Issues such as giving so much of our core manufacturing strengths to many Asian countries, including some “enemies”. But I digress.

[MartinSE]

I think the villages are an excellent place for EVs to make an entry. With so many multimodal paths the potential for a low speed limited range vehicle for shopping and entertainment is pretty obvious.

Atomic is an example, but from my perspective a bit too expensive for what it is.

Something with 100 mile range, over night charging. Two seater, AC, radio, comfy seating, good ride and for maybe $10k. About the size of the Smartcar.

Also, I have heard, read rumors of a self driving taxi/Uber like service was supposed to be coming here. That also would seem to be an excellent idea. Pay $50/month and have a car on call arriving in 10 minutes after you summons it.

Lots of opportunities. But, I do think the idea of pay $40k for 4000 lbs of steel, $50/mth insurance, $600/mth maintenance for a car that goes 120 mph less than 1% of the time and takes up space sitting in a garage 95% of the time is a Dinosaur in need of being extinct.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC

Think you are stretching what political is allowed and what is not. On some level everything is political

True, everything involves politics to some extent. We are ALL swimming in an ocean of it.It controls the water temperature and the water quality. It gives us our boundaries that we rely on.

[fdpaq0580]

I wonder, what would Jesus drive if he was alive today?

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by fdpaq0580

I wonder, what would Jesus drive if he was alive today?

He/she would drive...........................AWAY

[billethkid]

changed my mind!

[Cobullymom]

Battery replacement is ridiculously high and they all end up in a toxic dump. When they give us all free solar panels to recharge, maybe I’ll consider it. They give away free to everyone, but the middle class citizens…

Originally Posted by Tvflguy

With all the news re Electric vehicles, how likely are YOU to purchase one? If not, why not?

For me, our 5 year old gas vehicle is perfectly fine for many many years. And at our tax rate cannot use any Tax Credit to lower price. But if our situation changed I would consider.

[billethkid]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

He/she would drive...........................AWAY

Can only be viewed as BAIT!
----------------------------------------------------------------

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Cobullymom

Battery replacement is ridiculously high and they all end up in a toxic dump. When they give us all free solar panels to recharge, maybe I’ll consider it. They give away free to everyone, but the middle class citizens…

Battery replacement costs seem high. When included in the total cost of ownership the cost of the EV is still less than half that of most comparable ICE - ie. Tesla Model 3 vs Toyota.

The batteries are warranted for 8 years or 150,000 miles. At that point the estimated range of the battery pack is 70% of the original. Of the owners reporting having driven that far, most are reporting significantly higher battery range than 70% of original. So, after 150,000 miles, your range on a 300 mile version is warrantied to be at least 210 miles.

Replacement cost TODAY is approximately $4,000 per battery pack, the depending on the model Tesla's have between 4 and 5 battery packs. So, a maximum cost to replaced all batteries is $16,000 to $20,000. Amortized over 150,000 miles a $20,000 battery replacement will comes to $0.13/mile. Adding in an average cost of $0.05/mile for electricity that comes to roughly $0.18/mile.

The average cost per mile to drive an ICE vehicle today is $0.16/mile ($4.00/gal @25 miles/gal) not including maintenance, so IF you had to replace the batteries today, the TCO (total cost of ownership) would be approximately equal (depending on gas price remaining less than $4.00/gal for the next 10 years (highly unlikely, it is predicted to go up significantly, we just had a surge to $6.00/gal due to global conditions) - ignoring the other savings in maintenance required by ICE vehicles that are not needed on EVs.

The costs in kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electric batteries has fallen by 89% over the past 10 years, from $1,191/kWh in 2010. If that same reduction in price of batteries continues the replacement cost of the batteries will be approximately $400 to $500, or a total of $2,500, bringing the total cost of ownership of the EV down to less than $0.02/mile plus the $0.05/mile for electricity (assuming electricity does not go down in cost as fossil fuels are replaced by less expensive solar/wind/hydro etc sources).

That results in $0.07/mile which is the "less than half" I stated above.

Over the Air updates keep Teslas "usable" for a much longer life, than ICE vehicles which begin falling behind the technology curve the moment they are produced.

Also, battery technology is advancing rapidly. I have given NO estimates of the expected range of a battery pack purchased 10 years from now, but some estimates of 2x to 4x of todays ranges are not uncommon as new, higher density cleaner battery chemistries are brought into production. GM in particular has designed a battery system that allows upgrading batteries with new technology. Tesla's may or may not be able to upgrade to newer technology in the future. At this point they can replace old batteries with newer technology I see no reason to think they will not continue this practice.

When you replace the engine in a ICE (200,000 miles? if maintained) you get the same engine with the same technology and can expect the same performance etc. With new batteries you can expect improved performance, ie. range, charging rate, performance etc.

The advancement in technology of the batteries is why I personally do not recommend anyone with a good serviceable ICE rush out and buy an EV right now. Things will get better while you wait. If you are in the market for a new car now, EVs can and DO compete with the cost of ICE and at the same time help reduce carbon footprints, encourage further development by manufacturers etc.

If your ICE is new (less than 2 or 3 years old) I would recommend driving it for another 5 years, and you will likely see EV cost drop significantly as auto manufactures around the world begin converting to EV. In that time frame it would not be surprising to see range go up by 50% to 70% (GM is already offering a new EV with 460 mile range - to be released soon), total battery mileage will likely go up over 200,000 miles and cost to replace the batteries likely be half what it is today ($8,000 to $10,000).

If you are a leading edge kind of person, it is safe to say that purchasing a Tesla (or Chevy Bolt EUV) today will have a TCO of less than the equivalent ICE today.

EDIT: I don't know where you read/heard that the batteries end up in a toxic waste dump. That is not true, the batteries are being recycled.

[Chi-Town]

At one time electric cars outnumbered gasoline powered cars 10 to 1. There were even charging stations available. 120 years later and history is repeating itself. And with the electricity infrastructure everywhere it looks like this will be no passing phase. Cash for clunkers may be just around the corner.

[Tvflguy]

And in the last couple weeks since the Green Bill was passed, many EV prices had been raised. Hmmm. Coincidence ???

More and more out of the financial range of average Americans???