Is it then your opinion that we should just trust them to stay there ?

Absolutely amen to that.

When you say “greed” for their oil … I have a question for you and then a comment.

Given that oil fuels our modern economy and, without oil, we would all be much worse off … poverty, no jobs, limited electricity, no A/C, no golf carts etc, … do you really think wanting to obtain oil is somehow bad or immoral?

The irony is, if we really went to war for “their oil” we are without a doubt the most inept imperial power ever. Most of the contracts and benefits went to the Chinese and other countries, who were no doubt laughing at us thinking “how can the Americans always be so dumb?”. One can argue that, given $2 Trillion and many thousands of combat deaths / casualties to liberate the Iraqis, the US should have demanded some form of oil or other payment from Iraq. In addition, we should have kept some level of forces there instead of bailing out … that would have prevented the medieval nightmare of ISIS that is now emerging. You are spot on about these guys being “crazies” by the way … they have a blood lust for violence that is off the charts.

Suzi ... Thanks for starting this thread.

You, and all of us, should find this latest Radical Islamic group known as ISIS (aka ISIL and Islamic State) “scary” because they truly are. In reading the responses to this thread, it seems that most recognize we have a huge threat on our hands with ISIS.

Here are some painful truths:

• Radical Islam is the enemy of the United States as well as the rest of the West. We all need to stop debating this point and accept the obvious.

• It’s pointless to “blame America” for their hatred and say it’s our fault etc (not saying you are doing this btw). Islam has always been a violent and martial religion ever since the 7th Century.

• ISIS is a medieval nightmare come true. Among other things ISIS has
o Literally crucified some of the people they captured
o In other cases beheaded their captives, and still others, placed the heads on pikes
o In other instances ISIS lined their prisoners up in trenches and shot them point blank
o Kidnapped hundreds of Yazidi women of various ages and who are now literally sex slaves for Jihadi “warriors” … ie at least until they are killed.
o Declared war on Christianity and Christians wherever they can find them to destroy or kill
o Captured 100s of millions of dollars in Iraqi banks .. .which will be used for terror attacks
o Captured low grade uranium quite suitable for “dirty bomb” attacks (ie not a mushroom cloud but they can now spread radioactive material that will contaminate areas for a long time .. .think Washington, New York etc)
o Rapidly exerted control over about 1/3 of Iraqi territory
o Several hundred American and European fighters with passports … making them candidate to sneak into the US

Some other points to ponder

• Al-Baghdadi is the leader of ISIS. He is charismatic, holds a Masters and Doctorate in Islamic Studies. He is beyond ruthless. He has proclaimed himself “Caliph” … basically the head of state of all Muslims worldwide (eventually …ie that is his goal).

• He was in US custody for a while but was released. His parting words were “see you in New York”. Rather chilling.

• Put into different terms, this guy is truly the most likely successor to our generation’s version of a Hitler or Stalin. We cannot ignore it.

• It truly doesn’t matter if we dp not want to get involved, or consider the US the source of the problem, or if we insist on keeping our nose out of it etc. You see, ISIS absolutely WILL attack the US, regardless of what any of us want or think or hope, and I’m talking the homeland. IMHO it will take them 1-2 years to get the infrastructure and training up to speed.

• These guys are ORGANIZED and actually produce an annual report, just like a regular company. I can only imagine the staff meetings they have. It’s also clear that only the boldest and most innovative plans, and warriors, will “advance” and get promoted. They use metrics and what seems to be impressive organizational skill. Unreal but see this link.

http://understandingwar.org/sites/de..._Reports_0.pdf


• I will bet money ISIS will infiltrate Jihadis across what used to be our Southern Border. It’s a no brainer for them. While the US public is wrapped in a knot over “the kids”, they will see this as a huge opportunity to get not just people in here but, more importantly, the actual weapons and such.

• My guess is they will use IEDs (of course) but also dirty bombs likely in a coordinated way.

• The first two targets are same as before … New York City and Washington DC. However, I think they will also branch out and go after utility plants (ie reduced electricity means reduced economy) and other targets to attack us economically such as shopping malls, interstates etc.

• ISIS is very social media savvy. It’s become “cool” to be an ISIS guy amongst the disaffected Muslim youth of Europe, and in some cases the US.

• They are recruiting impressionable young European women to come to the Middle East to serve as wives for Jihadi. They are apparently getting some takers go figure.

What do we do?

Suffice to say that right now, even with the limited airstrikes, our strategy is that of an ostrich …our head is still largely in the sand. We are already in a war with these ISIS guys, we just haven’t been able to face up to that yet. I have some recommendations for actions the US needs to take, but this post is already too long so I’ll defer that for now.

This is a good post and I agree with it. We can, and at some point will have to level the ISIS homeland much as we did Germany and Japan but it will take several horrific attacks on our homeland before the need for this becomes obvious. Boots on the ground will also be inevitable at that point for us to truly destroy ISIS, which is what must happen.

However, the main point you omit is ISIS will attack us asymmetrically here at home … using innovative weapons and tactics, and most likely by coming across our porous southern border, or what used to be a border. We will truly rue and regret the day we did not secure it. I’m sure we will secure it after many thousands of Americans die here at home. It’s unfortunate we can’t anticipate, and then act, on the obvious now, but I think that’s partly the nature of a democratic republic. We are slow to rile but, once we have a Pearl Harbor, we go all out etc.

"Suffice to say that right now, even with the limited airstrikes, our strategy is that of an ostrich …our head is still largely in the sand. We are already in a war with these ISIS guys, we just haven’t been able to face up to that yet"

The above from TexaninVA

I agree and think this is the most scary for me.

This is the real truth. And as Paul Harvey used to say and now the rest of the story. That rest of the story will either be written by ISIS or the US. I hope we wake up soon as the ISIS version is not palatable.

Add to that the fact that we only get about 13% of our oil from the Persian Gulf and nearly 3/4 of that from Saudi Arabia and the argument that we are involved because of oil quickly goes down the drain.

We went into Iraq and got rid of Saddam Hussein. How did that help us in terms of oil?

I wholeheartedly agree with everything that you've said.

It won't be news to you, but perhaps it'll be reassuring to some to remind/make them aware that there's an awful lot going on within our military and intelligence agencies 24/7/365. As an example, EVERY electronic signal worldwide is captured and "scrubbed" by US "agencies" real time for its intelligence value. Translated, that means EVERY phone call (landline, cell, satellite, microwave, ultra-low/high frequency, low/high/very high/ultra high freq… EVERY email/text/internet posting, snapchat… EVERYTHING that transmits across the electromagnetic spectrum produced by humans is being captured and evaluated continuously real-time by the US all in an effort to keep this country and its citizens safe. Yes, your cell call from the beach in Bali with a fruity drink in hand is being recorded! :22yikes:

Many "actions" are "quietly" taken around the world to neutralize threats as they emerge all in an effort to prevent another 9-1-1. Unfortunately, it may take another horrific terrorist attack on our homeland to garner the "political cover" to take decisive military action and neutralize this latest ISIS threat. My point in mentioning these things is simply to reassure some folks that many emerging threats have been quietly suppressed without any "fanfare". (When was the last time you've read of Somali pirates hijacking ships?)

I said the Muslims are worse than the Nazis not only because of that but because they don't wear uniforms or can be identified unless caught in the act. A terrorist can be a civilian one moment, duck into a building, come out with an AK47 and mow down several soldiers then duck into the building, ditch the AK47 and then come out and walk amoung the people. They'll walk behind women and children and come out shooting, not caring if the women or children are killed. They know we are very concerned about civilian casualities and play that to their advantage, hiding in hospitals and schools.
In the last 5 months I've read 5 books by combat veterans (Delta Force and Navy Seals) who had to fight those people. Each one mentioned our ROE (rules of engagement) has hindered us to the point that many are afraid of the lawyers they would have to face.
This I believe is the worse enemy we have ever faced and we better start treating it seriously. They have no fear of death and in fact welcome it.

B767 … I’m smiling because you are exactly right. The intelligence community does all kinds of stuff ‘behind the scenes’ 24x7 to keep us safe. The irony of intel is that one can never talk about the successes because it would expose the operations and how one did it. OTOH, failures will usually be leaked to the press and/or politicized by one party or the other. Suffice to say there are a lot of successes, but no defense is foolproof and at some point some of these guys will get through. The saying about offense is the best defense is very much applicable here.

I also think you’re exactly right about what it will take for the political consensus to develop.

Shrimpy … you raise two interesting points.

1. I don’t think you intended to mention this aspect, but most people don’t realize that the Nazis and certain radical Islamic groups actually have very close ties that go back to the 1930s. The Muslim Brotherhood’s founder Hassan al-Banna was a great admirer of Adolph Hitler. After he rose to power in the 1930s, Hitler provided the MB financial and other support. The Waffen SS had Muslim volunteers who fought for the Nazis. Saddam’s Baath Party had ties going back to the Nazi’s as well. The unifying factor there, in addition to anti-Semitism, was hatred of the British.

2. Regarding the ROE, I think that will be a problem unless they are significantly loosened to let our guys win. To be blunt, we need to kill the ISIS enemy and kill them quickly, efficiently and ideally en masse. By the way, if anyone disagrees with that assertion, I’d like to hear them make their case.

3. The ROE has its origins in more of a ‘gentlemanly’ type warfare (not literally of course) where the Geneva Convention, Laws of War and so forth prevail. Ask yourself however that will work with ISIS jihadists? Probably not very well. I remember after 9/11, when the US was targeting the bad guys in Afghanistan, I was dismayed to learn than General Franks (C/CENTCOM) actually had a lawyer in the decisions loop about what targets could be hit and not. That makes your point actually about how military and intel people have to cover their rear ends instead of fighting flat out to win. Some rules and guidelines are needed of course, but to my way of thinking, when you need to have lawyers involved like this, it’s idiotic. Again, in my view, after enough domestic (i.e. civilian) American casualties accrue, we will change the rules but probably not before that happens.

4. Your should also read “Company Man” by John Rizzo. It's a very interesting book. Rizzo is actually a very patriotic guy so no criticism of him is intended but the fact that everything of significance had to be run thru the CIA lawyers is dismaying.

Back to the OP--what to do? What to do?
Almost nobody knows Bible prophecies predicting exactly what is happening on the entire globe.
It caught me somewhat by surprise, and I've been watching.
If anyone is interested in discussing events from that viewpoint, send me a PM.

I am sorry but I did not bring up the killing attributed to Islam from the slave trade which was a LONG time ago. However , history is distorted from several hundred years ago and last week.

We invaded Iraq because Iraq was a threat to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

That's the first time I've ever heard that one.

I'm more concerned whats going to happen here.

Armageddon
 

Avoiding Armageddon . About Series | PBS

Ted Turner thinks we can avoid Armageddon. What a surprise that PBS recognizes the signs of the times with this series.

Eschatologists, that is Bible scholars studying armageddon and the surrounding events, recognize the signs of the times.

The sharpest understanding of world events I can find comes from messianic Jews. These are Jews who recognize Jesus as Messiah. They know the history of Israel and significance of Israel, they know the Bible, and they love both. They would laugh at the idea that we can avoid Armageddon.

Most of us know what we get on the first three pages of Google for Armageddon, that is that Bruce Willis saved us.

two impediments prohibiting a real solution to the problems:

>big oil companies and countries

>weak kneed, flip flop, linguine spined politicians

Yes, it's bad, very bad. We need to kill them all.

Kill them all, and the world is coming to an end. I love this thread.

I feel somewhat better about the conditions in Iraq tonight. I just saw on TV that the Coptic (have I got that right) people have been led off the mountain to safety by the Kurds and some of our really, really good guys! Have not heard much about ISIS, can only hope we are bombing them into the ground! Yes, I'm violent, but if you want to run around beheading and crucifying people I want to see you obliterated - you, your children, your wives, any relatives you have. Unfortunately I also read that several hundred children have already died from dehydration. This is a terrible world and all in the name of religion.

The problem with a terrorist group is that there is nothing to bomb. Yes, we can make some surgical air strikes when they are in a specific location like this, and kill a few of them. But for the most part, these people are spread all over the world. Some may even be walking among us. Unlike any other conflict in history, there is no central government or land to bomb into the ground. Don't forget, Iraq is a country that we helped set up. They are now allies and we are over there at the request of the Iraqi government. We can't very well help them out by bombing Iraq into the ground.

Thanks, that book is on my list to read as recommended by one of the books I just read,.......Delta Force.....Inside Delta Force......Lone Survivor.......American Sniper....Seal Team 6......and Service, A Navy Seal at War.

"OUR" "greed for their OIL"???

How Guns and Oil Net ISIS $1 Million Per Day

"Every startup needs financing and a market to succeed. So, too, for the Islamist extremist group ISIS—or simply the Islamic State, as it calls itself—whose fighters stormed across the Syrian border into Iraq in June and seized the country’s second-biggest city, Mosul, before moving on to the outskirts of Baghdad.

Now ISIS, an outgrowth of the U.S. military’s deadly Sunni foes in Iraq a decade ago, is the tycoon of the jihadi world. Having taken over oilfields in war-torn northeastern Syria last year and reportedly earned tens of millions selling antiquities, it landed a giant infusion of cash by seizing about $425 million from a Mosul bank.

But ISIS’s real upside lies in exploiting one precious commodity: oil. The group nabbed three more fields in Iraq, tapping into pipelines and looting oil storage facilities in its new territory. Then it filled trucks and sold crude for the cut-rate price of $26 a barrel to Iraqi traders, who resold it to Kurdish smugglers at a 100% markup.

ISIS quickly developed its smugglers’ network—to which it now sells about 100 truckfuls of oil daily for around $9,000 each—netting nearly $1 million a day, according to truckers and officials who detailed the bonanza to the industry newsletter Iraq Oil Report. Not bad for a group with just about 10,000 fighters. Said one Kurdish intelligence officer: “This is a very profitable business.”

How guns and oil net ISIS $1 million a day - Fortune

It seems to me that OUR presence and protection of Iraq's oil fields would have prevented ISIS from becoming so well funded!

And who is crucifying and butchering children "in the name of Religion"???

[Anglican Communion News Service] The five-year-old son of a founding member of Baghdad’s Anglican church was cut in half during an attack by the Islamic State1 on the Christian town of Qaraqosh.

Anglican Vicar of Baghdad: ‘Child I baptized cut in half by ISIS’

The Iraqui president replaced the Iraqi prime minister, but he refuses to go. He has his militants in the street. So now it's a standoff situation. And where is Saddam Hussein when you need him. I dunno, some militants burned his tomb a few days ago.

The leader of ISIS, aka ISIL, is "Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi" or "al-Baghdadi" for short. One of his favorite books is a treatise known as "The Management of Savagery," which given what has been going on recently is an aptly titled book.

This book has also been described as "Che Guevara warmed over jihadis" while another person has described the book as “the seven highly effective habits of jihadi leaders.”

Some takeaway points are this new Radical Islamic leader is serious, well-organized, deadly, and diligently works at improving his organization's skill levels in the art of jihad. This is not some mystic hiding out in a cave.