This is a quote from the Netherlands Healthcare link above:
"You must be referred by your local doctor in order to see a specialist. Most specialists work in a hospital setting, and unfortunately you may experience a long wait period. The basic health insurance package will cover a visit to a specialist, but an excess fee may apply, depending on the treatment."

I have one request for any universal healthcare system that is implemented in the U.S. All of Congress has to give up their current healthcare package and be put on the universal healthcare system. They have to pay any fees not paid by the universal healthcare system. I do think that will make them pay a little more attention to what they vote into law.

All of Congress is provided the same packages that are available through the ACA Marketplace. They can get that, or they can pay out of pocket for whatever other plan they wish with no reimbursement.

Well, you get your wish,. Sen Grassy (R) in 2009 wrote a law requiring Congress Critters to do just that. But, it is even more so for them, since other citizens only have to maintain employer based insurance to qualify to not purchase their's through ACA. Congress does not qualify for that exemption. So, in fact Congress has stricter rules applied to ensure they must "go through the hoops and red tape" that American's have to go through when using ACA.

So, a R (Grassy) wrote the law, and a D (Obama) signed it into law.

It's basically Venezuelan-style health care.

This article
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docser...E72CD370075AC2
Has easy to read charts the clearly show surgery wait times in the Netherlands has been one of the best in the world. I never trust friends and relatives when it comes to health issues.

Many doctors take Medicaid because it’s not really Medicaid anymore. All Medicaid recipients are now on a managed care. It’s true in the old days not many doctors accepted Medicaid but things have changed dramatically.

Ask the Europeans how socialized medicine is working for them. Many of them have given up on it and are buying private insurance and going to doctors of their choice. Nothing is free in this world except for those who don't wish to work.

Why did you used Venezuelan heath care as an example, because that is a failed, state?

How about these note that none of these are failed states, all are rated as the citizens being happier and healthier than the US - (Notice the US at the bottom of the list) by intonations studies.

Netherlands
Australia
Sweden
Japan
Austria
Germany
France
United Kingdom

United States

Of a billion people, some are dissatisfied. Why now ask how many American's are happy with our health care system. EVERY independent study shows citizens of the following countries are happier and healthier than Americans.

Netherlands
Australia
Sweden
Japan
Austria
German
France
United Kingdom

Obviously when. dealing with BILLIONS of people one is not going to find perfection in this lifetime. So, what we are looking for is better. Better as rated by real costs (not just premiums), out come (how healthy is the population) and "customer satisfaction". Our system is almost universally disliked (90%) while other industrialized countries have much higher satisfaction and performance levels.

We can keep looking for perfection by throwing out individual anecdotal examples of problems and just keep paying more and more and getting less and less, or we can grow up, quit making name calling more important than discussion, and look for a way to improve our system.

It really is our choice, what do we want to leave our children? Higher bills and poor quality care, or lower bills and higher quality care. We choose, but they have to live with it.

The World Health Organization did just that, here is their results:

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA

This is just a dog whistles and by that I mean it is a cheering point at rallies, but has nothing to do with helping the situation.

No serious candidates are believe that some how they can wave a magic piece of legislation and magical fairies will show up and make everyone healthy.

Everything costs, what we are trying to do is to find a way to have healthy citizens that we can afford.

Universal health care proposals take into account cost/benefit analysis and show that by improving everyones health society (all of us) will on a average pay less.

Obviously no system is perfect, but constantly pointing out obvious failing of some systems doesn't help find a system that will work.

Guess all those lists make it fact...American citizens are all miserable and unhealthy compared to the rest of the world.

Yeah, right.

Wow. If I am reading this correctly, you think our only defense should be nuclear? There are some really bad people out there who would do us harm. I do not want to rely on nuclear as our only defense.

Do find ObamaCare a bit of a huge mess.

I did not qualify for it because our household takes in too much money.

I am very worried though about what will happen with medical care in the future. Especially with pre-existing conditions on how the relate to medical insurance.

Where are the facts to substantiate your claim? All the top-rated health care systems in the world are national health care systems.

We live in France for almost half the year, and qualify for France's health care. I hear NOBODY over here complaining about their health care. In fact, it is highly praised.

Here's another list to add to the WHO list. http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...-in-the-world/

Where are the facts to substantiate your claim? All the top-rated health care systems in the world are national health care systems.

We live in France for almost half the year, and qualify for France's health care. I hear NOBODY over here complaining about their health care. In fact, it is highly praised.

Here's another list to add to the one Martian gave. http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...-in-the-world/

Let’s get back to Medicare for all!!!

This is true of the majority of countries with socialized medicine. In the US, the wealthy can have cosmetic surgery while the poor cannot get life saving surgery. That’s wrong no matter how you say it. Another problem in the US, The vast majority of Americans DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOCIALISM AND COMMUNISM. In the Christian faith, a true Christian would sacrifice themselves to help others. Unfortunately in America, that’s not what we have.
:pray:

Like a lot of things, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

There is a huge need for access to decent health insurance for people to buy in to — at a reasonable cost — if they so CHOOSE. Not like the days before the ACA blocked insurance companies from refusing to cover pre-existing conditions. (It was not so long ago when people would pay good money for individual coverage and then not be covered like they were led to believe. Sometimes I think we are a nation of amnesiacs.)

If such a plan were to be available through the government, it could be standardized, like Medicare, and could change a lot of American lives — early retirees; those who have been downsized; entrepreneurs; those who are working at jobs with no benefits — and others I cannot think of right now because I am hurrying to try not to get caught up in this thread.

If anyone so opposed to Democrats actually gave a fair listening to the candidates the other night, they would have heard those who said what I just said — answers are in the middle. Choice is important.

Health insurance and Big Pharma are among the biggest lobbyists. Our American lives are now held in the hands of those with greasy palms.

I think the battle call of “Medicare for All” is drowning out those who understand the big picture best and want to solve the problem with fairness and common sense — middle ground.

My thoughts exactly. We paid Medicare tax while working. A part B per come out of our social security and we need supplemental insurance. Medicare is far from free.

I did not at any point say Americans are miserable and unhappy compared to the rest of the world.

There are shades of grey. Americans pay 2 to 3 times what people in other industrialized nations and get poorer outcomes for their money - does that make you happier than them? No, does it make you miserable - no. It means we can do better - you know that whole GREAT thing.

There are more than first and last place. There are more than thrilled and depressed. There are hundreds of countries where people are are sicker and less happy than we are.

Are you satisfied comparing yourself (our country) and the countries in last place? When I ran track in school I was never happy saying "I didn't come in last". I strived to be the best I could be, that that meant in or near first place.

I agree completely.

I somewhat disagree, I believe we must have a universal healthcare for EVERYONE. I do not believe basic vaccinations and basic healthcare should be optional, even at the individuals discretion. I do not want my next door neighbor bringing home the black plaque and killing me and my children.

I agree, obviously there are some positions that aero not possible or practical. But, one thing is certain, if we continue down the path we are on, there are no good things waiting for us.

We as a nation should be working towards a better life for our children.

Well and fairly debated. I listened and will remember and look closer. I always can count on you. We may not always agree but you are my furry friends mom.

I worked in healthcare my entire career both on the provider side and payer side. Also I taught part time in a Masters in Health Administration program for over twenty years. I am really open to both sides on this discussion.

Some observations:
1. There are two types of national healthcare. A system where the government provides the care (British system, VA system) and where the government provides insurance (Canadian system).

2. In both systems emergency care and primary, preventative care are quite good. In both systems non life threatening elective services are rationed (knee replacement, cataract surgery).

3. Physicians and healthcare providers make less. There is little to no marketing of hospital and physician services, thus no " mint on the pillow " add ons like gourmet menus and plush private rooms.

4. There are less innovations and break through discoveries. (How many new medical discoveries have come out of the Netherlands and France?)

To me it depends on what we want as a nation. Immediate availability and plush hospitals which are not necessary and expensive but what we Americans have come to expect? Or good quality but no frills healthcare like our VA system.

I’m sorry if I offended anyone with my true Christian remark. Its just in my opinion I see covering all medical needs for all people regardless of their financial status as a true spirit of Jesus Christ and his message too us all. I don’t know if the term Medicare for all is the way to say it or not, but when I hear, I worked for my coverage and it’s not a right, I tense up. Again, in my opinion, to even insinuate that a man with wealth should have better access to lifesaving medical attention than the poor or the old or children, that is not Christian.
I will listen if one wants to say Medicare for all, except those that are otherwise capable but refuse to contribute, fine. That is not the complaint I hear, it’s simply me with wealth and them. The them includes many that deserve our love and help. So, define the program as MEDICARE FOR ALL EXCEPT then perhaps we will have a better opportunity to be Christian

Plenty of cutting edge surgery and treatments originate in these countries, and in Europe in general, but probably not as much as some of the more wealthy institutions in the US.
However if it is denied to many/most US citizens because of its cost, what is its benefit, if but a few can afford it?

Your right, I should have clarified my comment. I so often hear that healthcare is like socialism if you don’t have the means to pay for it yourself. I put more into a category of the police, the fire department and paved roads. Not all of us pay enough taxes to pay for these things, but I separate these and health care into rights rather than socialism. We have far too many giveaways in this country and far too many programs that so many take advantage of, but health care must not be grouped in with the real socialist programs.

If we were to copy Europe, we would have a better health care system and provide healthcare to all - what you want to call it is becoming political, and healthcare should not be political. Healthcare is taking care of one another.
I have been to Europe many times and have not heard many complaints. They pay higher taxes, but it takes care of health AND retirement.

:bigbow:
I wish I had said it like you.
:bigbow:

But the point you left off is that despite paying MORE taxes, their bottom line is they pay LESS than the US for those same services and end up with more income not less.

And the reduction in stress by KNOWING that healthcare for them and their children regardless of any other circumstances (losing their job?) is guaranteed is something that is hard for Americans to understand. We always have that little thought in the back of our mind - can I afford to get sick, will the insurance company deny the treatment I need. For some those worries are more than for others, but even with the BEST insurance policies in the US, there is always the situation where the insurance company disagrees with the doctors treatment plan.

I have known people that work for the biggest (best?) insurance companies. Their job definition was very clear, to find ways to NOT pay claims. They were in what the companies call LOSS PREVENTION. The companies consider paying the claims that you are paying them to pay as LOSS...

:coolsmiley:

You seem to infer that Medicaid is the cause of the debt, which of course, it is not. The debt has increased in the last two years due to the lack of corporate tax income which drastically lowered revenue.

If insurance companies didn't question some treatments proposed by doctors, there would be quack clinics on every street corner performing bogus treatments for thousands of dollars. And, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between effective and ineffective treatments and medicine.

Bingo:popcorn:

I was just pointing out that Medicaid is not paid for with Federal income tax revenues as one poster claimed. The tax revenues have been inadequate to pay for the things the Government spends money on for many years. Currently, we spend about 4 trillion dollars per year, but only collect about 3 trillion in revenue. So, the debt is increasing by about a trillion dollars per year. That is the math, regardless of who pays what in taxes.

So debt is not related to spending or expenses. Ahh. I get it now. :shocked:

That's great info for all you private budget managers too!

Medicare for all would allow for the powers to streamline the system to help all rather than the few. I certainly don’t want scamming in our medical referral system, but far worse than that is to eliminate an entire group based on the MONEY!!!

Loss prevention is not a position or term associated with health insurers.

I think that one of the primary reasons that people cannot find common ground on this topic is that a lot of people cringe when someone says that the Federal Government is capable of "streamlining" anything.