Medicare for All

Closed Thread
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 09-13-2019, 08:52 AM
graciegirl's Avatar
graciegirl graciegirl is offline
Sage
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 40,004
Thanks: 4,850
Thanked 5,493 Times in 1,903 Posts
Send a message via AIM to graciegirl
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeriteri View Post
Social media is a worldwide avenue to everyone's life and positions. You have my permission.
I assumed permission and you have received much praise already.
__________________
It is better to laugh than to cry.
  #17  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:32 AM
Martian's Avatar
Martian Martian is offline
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 327
Thanks: 103
Thanked 196 Times in 67 Posts
Default

First is everyone willing to admit there is a very serious problem that is coming and the sooner we address it the less painful that will be. Namely healthcare is going to bankrupt our country in the not to distant future if we don't do something to change course.

The question is , what is the solution. More of the same is NOT a solution. More of what is not working is not going to magically start working.

The comment "free" really is a dog whistle that will gets lots of cheering and accomplishes nothing - on either side. Nothing is FREE. And anyone over 12 should realize it. Democrats that run on the use of the term "free" are doing themselves and the country a disservice. Some have defined how they plan to pay for the "medicare for all", some haven't. Those that have not provided a mechanism to pay for their plan, should be ignored - by both liberals and conservatives.

In my opinion the first step to solve a problem is to define the problem. I would like to hear your definition of the problem.

My definition of the problem is what I call predatory capitalism. That is the concept of profit at any expense. That a corporation has only one goal and that is to maximize profit, regardless of what it costs society or citizens. There is nothing wrong with predatory capitalism in the case of things that are not necessary. Cars, TV, Airplanes, etc, etc. However, when a company can hold a parent hostage by charging exorbitant fees for a $10 shot that would save their Childs life, that is predatory capitalism that is immoral and should not be permitted - IMHO.

I am all in favor of capitalism when the market can control it, which is only true when you life is not held hostage by the corporation.

So, here is my idea of how to solve the problem and there is numerous successful examples of this around the world.

The idea is that we recognize that basic healthcare is a human right every citizen should have. As such the government taxes everyone, and uses those to provide basic healthcare to everyone. Citizens do not pay the doctor, citizens to not pay the pharmacy, citizens do not pay the hospital. The government pays for it all, and collects taxes to fund that payment - nothing is free.

Notice I said BASIC healthcare. I do think that private health insurance should be available to anyone that wants and can afford it - to cover say, heart transplants, etc. The details of what is BASIC and what was not can be debated, and should be.

To make this work, free market capitalism can not be allowed in the basic healthcare market. The government must regulate costs, otherwise you end up with the fiasco that is going on with universities, where tuition has sky rocketed to the point that students now have trillions of dollars of debt, just to get an education This happened at least in part because the government provided "free" loans to students, so they could afford to pay the tuition, the universities saw the students could affords more, so they charged more. Round and round it went with skyrocketing tuition costs.

That is what happens with the government "pays" for something supplied by the free market. Market responds by adjusting the price to what people can afford, and with the government, there is no limit to what it appears to be able to afford.

So, to "fix" healthcare, we have to decide as a country that healthcare is a right, everyone must have access to basic healthcare. That has real benefits for society, with increased productivity, reduced illness (reducing costs) and people getting treatment for most basic issues early when it is less expensive than waiting until it is serious and expensive. To achieve that and not have the healthcare industry costs run crazy, the government must regulate (control/socialism) the healthcare industry. We would set a "reasonable" profit level that companies can make - 15% to 25%. Not 1000% profit. With a fixed profit margin, the government can then calculate the necessary tax rates to pay the costs.

As I saids this system (or variations of it can be seen around the world if you want to look, instead of pointing out failed socialistic states, look at the successes.

For a closers to home example look to the VA healthcare system. The VA struggles because they can not regulate costs, but they can negotiate costs (unlike Medicare) and that helps. So, the VA has a cost incentive to keep you healthy. They have a limited budget, and if you get sick, it costs them to cure you. If they can keep you healthy it helps meet their budget. And that attitude showed in everything they do. Unlike Medicare where the doctors have NO motivation to keep you healthy, their profit is in TREATING YOU not preventing to curing illness. It works.

That is my proposal, socialized medicine, similar to the VA healthcare.

What is your solution? I expect most posts (if anyone bothers to post) about my solution will simply be to tell me how stupid I am. Maybe I am stupid, but I have a plan, do you? How do you propose solving the coming unsustainable healthcare costs? Dos you solution work for you alone, or for everyone? Should the solution work only for the rich, or for everyone?

I am interested in honest disagreement supported with reasonable arguments, name calling and dog whistles with no supporting evidence will one ignore.
__________________
All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. --George Orwell
  #18  
Old 09-13-2019, 10:05 AM
justjim justjim is offline
Sage
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Illinois, Tennesee, Florida, Village of Caroline, Sanibel, LaBelle
Posts: 5,616
Thanks: 61
Thanked 1,297 Times in 535 Posts
Default

When Current Medicare was proposed we heard similar cries of “it will never work”. What would most seniors do without Medicare today? There are many proposals for changes in our health care system currently being “floated” about especially during election years. Sense there are so many “players” involved in any change i.e. Insurance companies, doctors, pharmaceutical companies, Hospitals, Clinics, Congress, and The President to name a few - it’s complicated. Frankly, I am not knowledgeable enough to make an intelligent comment on what changes should be made in our health care systems so I am going to hope for the best outcome and deal with whatever that outcome happens to be.
__________________
Most people are as happy as they make up their mind to be. Abraham Lincoln
  #19  
Old 09-13-2019, 10:48 AM
Taltarzac725's Avatar
Taltarzac725 Taltarzac725 is offline
Sage
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 49,311
Thanks: 9,392
Thanked 3,295 Times in 2,044 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian View Post
First is everyone willing to admit there is a very serious problem that is coming and the sooner we address it the less painful that will be. Namely healthcare is going to bankrupt our country in the not to distant future if we don't do something to change course.

The question is , what is the solution. More of the same is NOT a solution. More of what is not working is not going to magically start working.

The comment "free" really is a dog whistle that will gets lots of cheering and accomplishes nothing - on either side. Nothing is FREE. And anyone over 12 should realize it. Democrats that run on the use of the term "free" are doing themselves and the country a disservice. Some have defined how they plan to pay for the "medicare for all", some haven't. Those that have not provided a mechanism to pay for their plan, should be ignored - by both liberals and conservatives.

In my opinion the first step to solve a problem is to define the problem. I would like to hear your definition of the problem.

My definition of the problem is what I call predatory capitalism. That is the concept of profit at any expense. That a corporation has only one goal and that is to maximize profit, regardless of what it costs society or citizens. There is nothing wrong with predatory capitalism in the case of things that are not necessary. Cars, TV, Airplanes, etc, etc. However, when a company can hold a parent hostage by charging exorbitant fees for a $10 shot that would save their Childs life, that is predatory capitalism that is immoral and should not be permitted - IMHO.

I am all in favor of capitalism when the market can control it, which is only true when you life is not held hostage by the corporation.

So, here is my idea of how to solve the problem and there is numerous successful examples of this around the world.

The idea is that we recognize that basic healthcare is a human right every citizen should have. As such the government taxes everyone, and uses those to provide basic healthcare to everyone. Citizens do not pay the doctor, citizens to not pay the pharmacy, citizens do not pay the hospital. The government pays for it all, and collects taxes to fund that payment - nothing is free.

Notice I said BASIC healthcare. I do think that private health insurance should be available to anyone that wants and can afford it - to cover say, heart transplants, etc. The details of what is BASIC and what was not can be debated, and should be.

To make this work, free market capitalism can not be allowed in the basic healthcare market. The government must regulate costs, otherwise you end up with the fiasco that is going on with universities, where tuition has sky rocketed to the point that students now have trillions of dollars of debt, just to get an education This happened at least in part because the government provided "free" loans to students, so they could afford to pay the tuition, the universities saw the students could affords more, so they charged more. Round and round it went with skyrocketing tuition costs.

That is what happens with the government "pays" for something supplied by the free market. Market responds by adjusting the price to what people can afford, and with the government, there is no limit to what it appears to be able to afford.

So, to "fix" healthcare, we have to decide as a country that healthcare is a right, everyone must have access to basic healthcare. That has real benefits for society, with increased productivity, reduced illness (reducing costs) and people getting treatment for most basic issues early when it is less expensive than waiting until it is serious and expensive. To achieve that and not have the healthcare industry costs run crazy, the government must regulate (control/socialism) the healthcare industry. We would set a "reasonable" profit level that companies can make - 15% to 25%. Not 1000% profit. With a fixed profit margin, the government can then calculate the necessary tax rates to pay the costs.

As I saids this system (or variations of it can be seen around the world if you want to look, instead of pointing out failed socialistic states, look at the successes.

For a closers to home example look to the VA healthcare system. The VA struggles because they can not regulate costs, but they can negotiate costs (unlike Medicare) and that helps. So, the VA has a cost incentive to keep you healthy. They have a limited budget, and if you get sick, it costs them to cure you. If they can keep you healthy it helps meet their budget. And that attitude showed in everything they do. Unlike Medicare where the doctors have NO motivation to keep you healthy, their profit is in TREATING YOU not preventing to curing illness. It works.

That is my proposal, socialized medicine, similar to the VA healthcare.

What is your solution? I expect most posts (if anyone bothers to post) about my solution will simply be to tell me how stupid I am. Maybe I am stupid, but I have a plan, do you? How do you propose solving the coming unsustainable healthcare costs? Dos you solution work for you alone, or for everyone? Should the solution work only for the rich, or for everyone?

I am interested in honest disagreement supported with reasonable arguments, name calling and dog whistles with no supporting evidence will one ignore.
That is a very thoughtful and useful post. Thanks. Maybe we can get an intelligent conversation started. I have met many intelligent people here in the Villages and many in Florida when I was volunteering at two public libraries in Palm Harbor, FL. I hope people with more than dog whistles and gross overgeneralizations will join in this TOTV.
  #20  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:03 AM
JimJohnson JimJohnson is offline
Veteran member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: The Villages
Posts: 724
Thanks: 259
Thanked 1,015 Times in 273 Posts
Default

How should I justify in my mind that if a person don’t work long enough and hard enough on a job good enough to pay for their own medical, then they can just die. I think the government should offer free euthanasia and body disposal so we don’t end up with decaying poor dead people all over the place. Maybe a look at soylent green as an alternative.
  #21  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:20 AM
Taltarzac725's Avatar
Taltarzac725 Taltarzac725 is offline
Sage
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 49,311
Thanks: 9,392
Thanked 3,295 Times in 2,044 Posts
Default

Healthcare in the Netherlands: A guide to the Dutch healthcare system - TransferWise

We should examine what other countries have done about their health care systems.
  #22  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:21 AM
JimJohnson JimJohnson is offline
Veteran member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: The Villages
Posts: 724
Thanks: 259
Thanked 1,015 Times in 273 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 View Post
Healthcare in the Netherlands: A guide to the Dutch healthcare system - TransferWise

We should examine what other countries have done about their health care systems.
Yes!
  #23  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:35 AM
graciegirl's Avatar
graciegirl graciegirl is offline
Sage
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 40,004
Thanks: 4,850
Thanked 5,493 Times in 1,903 Posts
Send a message via AIM to graciegirl
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 View Post
Healthcare in the Netherlands: A guide to the Dutch healthcare system - TransferWise

We should examine what other countries have done about their health care systems.
I had a friend in the Netherlands that had to wait more than four months for a Mastectomy. In Austria they pay more than 50% taxes but they get free college tuition..... but only the highest performing quarter of the high school graduating class is allowed to attend.
__________________
It is better to laugh than to cry.
  #24  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:43 AM
retiredguy123 retiredguy123 is online now
Sage
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 13,938
Thanks: 2,272
Thanked 13,411 Times in 5,104 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
I had a friend in the Netherlands that had to wait more than four months for a Mastectomy. In Austria they pay more than 50% taxes but they get free college tuition..... but only the highest performing quarter of the high school graduating class is allowed to attend.
It is interesting that the link provided doesn't say anything about a four month wait for a major, time sensitive surgery. Seems like that would be an important thing to include in the health care description.
  #25  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:03 PM
retiredguy123 retiredguy123 is online now
Sage
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 13,938
Thanks: 2,272
Thanked 13,411 Times in 5,104 Posts
Default

Here is my health plan. The Government should provide:

1. Catastrophic insurance coverage for all citizens
2. Basic coverage for indigents
3. Regulations against price gouging
4. A competitive marketplace for health care where the patient has choices and financial responsibility
5. Private insurance should be available, but no plan should be allowed to provide 100 percent payment for covered services.

I believe that competition and patient involvement is the only way to control costs.
  #26  
Old 09-13-2019, 01:18 PM
Taltarzac725's Avatar
Taltarzac725 Taltarzac725 is offline
Sage
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 49,311
Thanks: 9,392
Thanked 3,295 Times in 2,044 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
I had a friend in the Netherlands that had to wait more than four months for a Mastectomy. In Austria they pay more than 50% taxes but they get free college tuition..... but only the highest performing quarter of the high school graduating class is allowed to attend.
• Netherlands: waiting time for surgery or hospitalization, by treatment 2016 | Statista

I did find this.
  #27  
Old 09-13-2019, 01:24 PM
JimJohnson JimJohnson is offline
Veteran member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: The Villages
Posts: 724
Thanks: 259
Thanked 1,015 Times in 273 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 View Post
• Netherlands: waiting time for surgery or hospitalization, by treatment 2016 | Statista

Some post fake news, but when it comes to medical treatment we all have a responsibility to the truth.
  #28  
Old 09-13-2019, 01:28 PM
retiredguy123 retiredguy123 is online now
Sage
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 13,938
Thanks: 2,272
Thanked 13,411 Times in 5,104 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 View Post
I went to the link, but it looks like you have to pay to read the statistics?
  #29  
Old 09-13-2019, 01:39 PM
CFrance's Avatar
CFrance CFrance is offline
Sage
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Tamarind Grove/Monpazier, France
Posts: 14,480
Thanks: 388
Thanked 1,922 Times in 783 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 View Post
Healthcare in the Netherlands: A guide to the Dutch healthcare system - TransferWise

We should examine what other countries have done about their health care systems.
Thank you, Tal. Wait time for elective surgery might be a lot longer than for critical care situations.
__________________
It's harder to hate close up.
  #30  
Old 09-13-2019, 01:48 PM
JimJohnson JimJohnson is offline
Veteran member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: The Villages
Posts: 724
Thanks: 259
Thanked 1,015 Times in 273 Posts
Default

In the Netherlands, even elective surgery like breast Enhancement is only 6 weeks. 4 months waiting for a required surgery is not true. We all must do fact checking before making untrue statements. This is about health and could have a negative affect on someone’s mental status.
Closed Thread

Tags
medicare, premiums, pays, care, coverages

Thread Tools

You are viewing a new design of the TOTV site. Click here to revert to the old version.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:22 AM.