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  #11  
Old 09-13-2019, 07:38 AM
retiredguy123 retiredguy123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
The plan you refer to exists, and is called Medicaid. It's not available for all, but it is available for Americans who can't otherwise afford medical care. It is currently paid for through federal income tax. If you have received a paycheck from someone, you have paid the tax for it. The only thing is that the number of doctors who participate are extremely limited so yes - you can go to any doctor you want - but if the doctor doesn't participate, you pay 100% of their bill.

Socialized medicine isn't free, it is paid for through taxes. But you don't pay taxes PLUS a monthly premium. So in other words, the subscription itself - is free. The care is already paid for.
You say that Medicaid is paid for through Federal income tax. But, you failed to mention that the Government spends way more than they collect in taxes, much of it for Medicaid. That is why we have a 22 trillion dollar debt, and so far this fiscal year, we have already spent over a trillion dollars more than we have received in taxes. So, I think it is more accurate to say that about two thirds of Medicaid is paid for with taxes, and the other third is paid for with borrowed money that our country will need to pay back in the future.

Last edited by retiredguy123; 09-13-2019 at 07:48 AM.

  #12  
Old 09-13-2019, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
The plan you refer to exists, and is called Medicaid. It's not available for all, but it is available for Americans who can't otherwise afford medical care. It is currently paid for through federal income tax. If you have received a paycheck from someone, you have paid the tax for it. The only thing is that the number of doctors who participate are extremely limited so yes - you can go to any doctor you want - but if the doctor doesn't participate, you pay 100% of their bill.

Socialized medicine isn't free, it is paid for through taxes. But you don't pay taxes PLUS a monthly premium. So in other words, the subscription itself - is free. The care is already paid for.
There was an article that various hospitals and other health care providers are suing MEDICAID for the costs of services provided, either the individual or their estate. Apparently there was a law signed under Clinton(?) possibly Obama(?) that allows this, so IMHO, while Medicaid might appear to be "free" or very low cost while you are living you or your estate may get hit later. The article was very interesting and something I did not realize. I tried to provide a link but it was not linkable.
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  #13  
Old 09-13-2019, 08:16 AM
jeriteri jeriteri is offline
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May I have your permission to copy this and post on Facebook?
Social media is a worldwide avenue to everyone's life and positions. You have my permission.
  #14  
Old 09-13-2019, 08:17 AM
TheWarriors TheWarriors is offline
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Don’t think you will find too many highly sought after doctors that accept Medicaid, even Medicare doesn’t pay enough for their time for your visit. With free healthcare, you will still end up with 2 systems as those able to afford better care will still pay out of pocket for quality care.
  #15  
Old 09-13-2019, 08:29 AM
retiredguy123 retiredguy123 is offline
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Don’t think you will find too many highly sought after doctors that accept Medicaid, even Medicare doesn’t pay enough for their time for your visit. With free healthcare, you will still end up with 2 systems as those able to afford better care will still pay out of pocket for quality care.
I agree, but there are 70 million people enrolled on Medicaid and 43 million on Medicare. So, there must be a lot of doctors accepting these programs.
  #16  
Old 09-13-2019, 08:52 AM
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Social media is a worldwide avenue to everyone's life and positions. You have my permission.
I assumed permission and you have received much praise already.
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  #17  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:32 AM
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First is everyone willing to admit there is a very serious problem that is coming and the sooner we address it the less painful that will be. Namely healthcare is going to bankrupt our country in the not to distant future if we don't do something to change course.

The question is , what is the solution. More of the same is NOT a solution. More of what is not working is not going to magically start working.

The comment "free" really is a dog whistle that will gets lots of cheering and accomplishes nothing - on either side. Nothing is FREE. And anyone over 12 should realize it. Democrats that run on the use of the term "free" are doing themselves and the country a disservice. Some have defined how they plan to pay for the "medicare for all", some haven't. Those that have not provided a mechanism to pay for their plan, should be ignored - by both liberals and conservatives.

In my opinion the first step to solve a problem is to define the problem. I would like to hear your definition of the problem.

My definition of the problem is what I call predatory capitalism. That is the concept of profit at any expense. That a corporation has only one goal and that is to maximize profit, regardless of what it costs society or citizens. There is nothing wrong with predatory capitalism in the case of things that are not necessary. Cars, TV, Airplanes, etc, etc. However, when a company can hold a parent hostage by charging exorbitant fees for a $10 shot that would save their Childs life, that is predatory capitalism that is immoral and should not be permitted - IMHO.

I am all in favor of capitalism when the market can control it, which is only true when you life is not held hostage by the corporation.

So, here is my idea of how to solve the problem and there is numerous successful examples of this around the world.

The idea is that we recognize that basic healthcare is a human right every citizen should have. As such the government taxes everyone, and uses those to provide basic healthcare to everyone. Citizens do not pay the doctor, citizens to not pay the pharmacy, citizens do not pay the hospital. The government pays for it all, and collects taxes to fund that payment - nothing is free.

Notice I said BASIC healthcare. I do think that private health insurance should be available to anyone that wants and can afford it - to cover say, heart transplants, etc. The details of what is BASIC and what was not can be debated, and should be.

To make this work, free market capitalism can not be allowed in the basic healthcare market. The government must regulate costs, otherwise you end up with the fiasco that is going on with universities, where tuition has sky rocketed to the point that students now have trillions of dollars of debt, just to get an education This happened at least in part because the government provided "free" loans to students, so they could afford to pay the tuition, the universities saw the students could affords more, so they charged more. Round and round it went with skyrocketing tuition costs.

That is what happens with the government "pays" for something supplied by the free market. Market responds by adjusting the price to what people can afford, and with the government, there is no limit to what it appears to be able to afford.

So, to "fix" healthcare, we have to decide as a country that healthcare is a right, everyone must have access to basic healthcare. That has real benefits for society, with increased productivity, reduced illness (reducing costs) and people getting treatment for most basic issues early when it is less expensive than waiting until it is serious and expensive. To achieve that and not have the healthcare industry costs run crazy, the government must regulate (control/socialism) the healthcare industry. We would set a "reasonable" profit level that companies can make - 15% to 25%. Not 1000% profit. With a fixed profit margin, the government can then calculate the necessary tax rates to pay the costs.

As I saids this system (or variations of it can be seen around the world if you want to look, instead of pointing out failed socialistic states, look at the successes.

For a closers to home example look to the VA healthcare system. The VA struggles because they can not regulate costs, but they can negotiate costs (unlike Medicare) and that helps. So, the VA has a cost incentive to keep you healthy. They have a limited budget, and if you get sick, it costs them to cure you. If they can keep you healthy it helps meet their budget. And that attitude showed in everything they do. Unlike Medicare where the doctors have NO motivation to keep you healthy, their profit is in TREATING YOU not preventing to curing illness. It works.

That is my proposal, socialized medicine, similar to the VA healthcare.

What is your solution? I expect most posts (if anyone bothers to post) about my solution will simply be to tell me how stupid I am. Maybe I am stupid, but I have a plan, do you? How do you propose solving the coming unsustainable healthcare costs? Dos you solution work for you alone, or for everyone? Should the solution work only for the rich, or for everyone?

I am interested in honest disagreement supported with reasonable arguments, name calling and dog whistles with no supporting evidence will one ignore.
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  #18  
Old 09-13-2019, 10:05 AM
justjim justjim is offline
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When Current Medicare was proposed we heard similar cries of “it will never work”. What would most seniors do without Medicare today? There are many proposals for changes in our health care system currently being “floated” about especially during election years. Sense there are so many “players” involved in any change i.e. Insurance companies, doctors, pharmaceutical companies, Hospitals, Clinics, Congress, and The President to name a few - it’s complicated. Frankly, I am not knowledgeable enough to make an intelligent comment on what changes should be made in our health care systems so I am going to hope for the best outcome and deal with whatever that outcome happens to be.
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  #19  
Old 09-13-2019, 10:48 AM
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Taltarzac725 Taltarzac725 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian View Post
First is everyone willing to admit there is a very serious problem that is coming and the sooner we address it the less painful that will be. Namely healthcare is going to bankrupt our country in the not to distant future if we don't do something to change course.

The question is , what is the solution. More of the same is NOT a solution. More of what is not working is not going to magically start working.

The comment "free" really is a dog whistle that will gets lots of cheering and accomplishes nothing - on either side. Nothing is FREE. And anyone over 12 should realize it. Democrats that run on the use of the term "free" are doing themselves and the country a disservice. Some have defined how they plan to pay for the "medicare for all", some haven't. Those that have not provided a mechanism to pay for their plan, should be ignored - by both liberals and conservatives.

In my opinion the first step to solve a problem is to define the problem. I would like to hear your definition of the problem.

My definition of the problem is what I call predatory capitalism. That is the concept of profit at any expense. That a corporation has only one goal and that is to maximize profit, regardless of what it costs society or citizens. There is nothing wrong with predatory capitalism in the case of things that are not necessary. Cars, TV, Airplanes, etc, etc. However, when a company can hold a parent hostage by charging exorbitant fees for a $10 shot that would save their Childs life, that is predatory capitalism that is immoral and should not be permitted - IMHO.

I am all in favor of capitalism when the market can control it, which is only true when you life is not held hostage by the corporation.

So, here is my idea of how to solve the problem and there is numerous successful examples of this around the world.

The idea is that we recognize that basic healthcare is a human right every citizen should have. As such the government taxes everyone, and uses those to provide basic healthcare to everyone. Citizens do not pay the doctor, citizens to not pay the pharmacy, citizens do not pay the hospital. The government pays for it all, and collects taxes to fund that payment - nothing is free.

Notice I said BASIC healthcare. I do think that private health insurance should be available to anyone that wants and can afford it - to cover say, heart transplants, etc. The details of what is BASIC and what was not can be debated, and should be.

To make this work, free market capitalism can not be allowed in the basic healthcare market. The government must regulate costs, otherwise you end up with the fiasco that is going on with universities, where tuition has sky rocketed to the point that students now have trillions of dollars of debt, just to get an education This happened at least in part because the government provided "free" loans to students, so they could afford to pay the tuition, the universities saw the students could affords more, so they charged more. Round and round it went with skyrocketing tuition costs.

That is what happens with the government "pays" for something supplied by the free market. Market responds by adjusting the price to what people can afford, and with the government, there is no limit to what it appears to be able to afford.

So, to "fix" healthcare, we have to decide as a country that healthcare is a right, everyone must have access to basic healthcare. That has real benefits for society, with increased productivity, reduced illness (reducing costs) and people getting treatment for most basic issues early when it is less expensive than waiting until it is serious and expensive. To achieve that and not have the healthcare industry costs run crazy, the government must regulate (control/socialism) the healthcare industry. We would set a "reasonable" profit level that companies can make - 15% to 25%. Not 1000% profit. With a fixed profit margin, the government can then calculate the necessary tax rates to pay the costs.

As I saids this system (or variations of it can be seen around the world if you want to look, instead of pointing out failed socialistic states, look at the successes.

For a closers to home example look to the VA healthcare system. The VA struggles because they can not regulate costs, but they can negotiate costs (unlike Medicare) and that helps. So, the VA has a cost incentive to keep you healthy. They have a limited budget, and if you get sick, it costs them to cure you. If they can keep you healthy it helps meet their budget. And that attitude showed in everything they do. Unlike Medicare where the doctors have NO motivation to keep you healthy, their profit is in TREATING YOU not preventing to curing illness. It works.

That is my proposal, socialized medicine, similar to the VA healthcare.

What is your solution? I expect most posts (if anyone bothers to post) about my solution will simply be to tell me how stupid I am. Maybe I am stupid, but I have a plan, do you? How do you propose solving the coming unsustainable healthcare costs? Dos you solution work for you alone, or for everyone? Should the solution work only for the rich, or for everyone?

I am interested in honest disagreement supported with reasonable arguments, name calling and dog whistles with no supporting evidence will one ignore.
That is a very thoughtful and useful post. Thanks. Maybe we can get an intelligent conversation started. I have met many intelligent people here in the Villages and many in Florida when I was volunteering at two public libraries in Palm Harbor, FL. I hope people with more than dog whistles and gross overgeneralizations will join in this TOTV.
  #20  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:03 AM
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JimJohnson JimJohnson is offline
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How should I justify in my mind that if a person don’t work long enough and hard enough on a job good enough to pay for their own medical, then they can just die. I think the government should offer free euthanasia and body disposal so we don’t end up with decaying poor dead people all over the place. Maybe a look at soylent green as an alternative.
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