[mulligan]

I think the most important aspect of this issue begs one question. Is this the kind of "sports hero " you want your kids to look up to?

[bkcunningham1]

Originally Posted by Pturner

Well, I put it in the same category as cock fighting but not in the same category as breeding pure bred dogs. No doubt I am missing your point.

I watched the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed. I realized as I watched that it was part truth and part propaganda; but I wanted to know more. I've read information, talked to people on both sides of the issue and it really opened my eyes. Look into it yourself, P, and see what you think. Here's a couple of places to start:



http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episo...problems/1281/


http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/

[PennBF]

I remember a comment once made to me by a very bright and respected
person who spent their time as an inventor, etc. He was in my mind a
great person with a terrific mind.
His comment regarding killing of anything was "tell me where you stop?
With what living thing?"Taking it a step further. If you would kill a fly, would you also kill a bird, would you then kill a cat, then a dog then horse,..etc.etc.
At what point does your conscience or internal moral code kick in?
What is the real difference if you kill any one of these? You have
taken a life and have no idea why it was created for earth.
Only a person with little or no conscience would assume the arrogrant
role of the right to kill something.
I know there will be a lot of, "flies should be killed, ants should be killed,
they have no right to live...I don't propose to argue these points just
raise this as something to think about.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by mulligan

I think the most important aspect of this issue begs one question. Is this the kind of "sports hero " you want your kids to look up to?

That really is the crux of the matter.

[Pturner]

Originally Posted by bkcunningham1

I watched the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed. I realized as I watched that it was part truth and part propaganda; but I wanted to know more. I've read information, talked to people on both sides of the issue and it really opened my eyes. Look into yourself, P, and see what you think. Here's a couple of places to start:



http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episo...problems/1281/


http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/

Hi BK, thank you for the links. The info is disheartening. No doubt there are more irresponsible dog breeders than we care to realize. A distinction I would make is that there are responsible and irresponsible, even reprehensible, dog breeders. There are no respectable animal torturers.

[villagegolfer]

Originally Posted by PennBF

I remember a comment once made to me by a very bright and respected
person who spent their time as an inventor, etc. He was in my mind a
great person with a terrific mind.
His comment regarding killing of anything was "tell me where you stop?
With what living thing?"Taking it a step further. If you would kill a fly, would you also kill a bird, would you then kill a cat, then a dog then horse,..etc.etc.
At what point does your conscience or internal moral code kick in?
What is the real difference if you kill any one of these? You have
taken a life and have no idea why it was created for earth.
Only a person with little or no conscience would assume the arrogrant
role of the right to kill something.
I know there will be a lot of, "flies should be killed, ants should be killed,
they have no right to live...I don't propose to argue these points just
raise this as something to think about.

Would you kill a terrorist knowing that he/she was willing and ready to kill thousands of people?

[PennBF]

I am disappointed that some feel the need to try to be "cute" or demonstrate
they have some form of deep "philosophical" abilities when in reality they fall far short and actually embarass themselves.
To clarify...There is a big difference in killing something that is apart of nature and someone who kills because they are a sociopath.
I would hope the average person could separate one from the other. It is sad to even respond and further embarass the writer?

[villagegolfer]

Originally Posted by PennBF

I am disappointed that some feel the need to try to be "cute" or demonstrate
they have some form of deep "philosophical" abilities when in reality they fall far short and actually embarass themselves.
To clarify...There is a big difference in killing something that is apart of nature and someone who kills because they are a sociopath.
I would hope the average person could separate one from the other. It is sad to even respond and further embarass the writer?

Don't worry, it will take greater minds to embarrass me. Someone here has philosophized this subject to no avail.
Also, the ADMIN frowns on personal attacks.

[ilovetv]

I think that when a person gets pleasure and entertainment out of torturing, maiming and killing an animal, it's deeply sick in the mind, and not just an isolated behavior "learned in the culture" that can be reversed by being jailed for a year or two.

I think this is why many here are disgusted with the "light" sentence Vick completed, and that he is allowed to continue as an entertainer making tens of millions of dollars from applauding, adoring fans who are teaching kids it's okay to overlook such heroes' behavior when not on stage.

[villagegolfer]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

I think that when a person gets pleasure and entertainment out of torturing, maiming and killing an animal, it's deeply sick in the mind, and not just an isolated behavior "learned in the culture" that can be reversed by being jailed for a year or two.

I think this is why many here are disgusted with the "light" sentence Vick completed, and that he is allowed to continue as and entertainer making tens of millions of dollars from applauding, adoring fans.

I was accused of seeing things in black and white and not seeing the gray. That person said there were nuances. Is every abuse case a black and white?

[graciegirl]

As a child The Baltimore Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church said that there were mortal and veniel sins.

I don't know if that is still taught that some bad things were far worse than other bad things.

I do still think that there are some things more heinous than others.

Killing a fly to me is not the same as killing an animal that is for many a family pet and for some. loved like a child.

I think that torturing an animal for the sick sake of watching it hurt is very serious behavior and an indication of mental illness.

[Harry Gilbert]

I got curious so I looked up the sentencing guidelines for dog fighting. Fed and State. Most are in the 3-5 year range but that doesn't mean that judges have to sentence the max and most don't. At the time of Vick's arrest the max Fed sentence was 1 year which he received along with 11 months for a interstate commerce charge.

Like it or not he did his time. Do I condone his actions NO but there are a lot of actions I don't condone

As far as hero figures

Michael Irvin: caught with cocaine made the HOF and still working on TV
Sammy Sosa: cheating and drug use
Lance Armstrong: jury still out on him
Tiger Woods:
and many more.

Why no mention of any of these fallen athletes? But many posts on Vick?

[PennBF]

A basic debate or negiotation reqirement is if I convince you I am right you will change your mind, if you convince me you are right I will change my mind. Absent of these fundemental commitments it is not a debate or very valuable discussion since neither is agreeable to change. It would appear this is the condition in this thead and any further words are useless unless there is a need to just repeat oneself?