Debate
 

Regarding the ones that feel there should be a debate on the issue. Since
reading the input I am convinced that some are not really interested in a sincere discussioin on the subject as their comments have no basis in fact. I believe I provided some direction as to research references regarding certain anti social behaviors. I would be more than willing to have an interchange of ideas where there is more than a just unfounded statement on the subject meant to just argue. This is not too cchallenging. To repeat some references that would be good reading and research, : "How to Spot a Borderline Personality", "The Psychopath Test:A Test a Journey Through..","The Sociopath Next Door", "Snakes in Suits", "Clues to Deceit, A Practical Lies". I guess the book to best start with is "The Sociopath Next Door". It was written by a Harvard Professor who I believe spent the better part of her career studying sociopath behavior, symptons, etc.etc.:popcorn:

I have been involved with the rescue and rehabilitation of abused animals for almost thirty years. It is both one of the most heart-wrenching and most gratifying volunteer activities I have ever had the honor to participate. I have also generously supported many no kill animal shelters for as long as I can remember.

At this very moment, I am caring for a beautiful female dog (Golden Retriever mix) that is approximately 4 or 5 years of age who has suffered greatly from neglect and physical abuse. She is very timid and especially afraid of men which is not uncommon with abused dogs, since so many abusers are men, but not all, of course.

Those of us who are intimately involved with animal welfare issues were not the least bit surprised to learn that Michael Vick had a long history of animal torture dating back to his childhood. Nor were we surprised when he received such a short incarceration for such heinous crimes.

This whole sordid issue with Michael Vick and his malicious treatment of dogs underscores the need for more public awareness of animal torture.

Many people are unaware of the strong connection between animal torture and other kinds of deviant behaviors such as rape, pedophilia, and spousal abuse. So, while some may wish to ignore animal cruelty, they are also ignoring the danger these psychopaths present to humans as well.

For those of you who feel that the NFL was justified in allowing Michael Vick to return to his “former life” as a football player, I would suggest you go to your nearest animal shelter and adopt a dog or cat that has been viciously tortured at the hand of a human being.

Only then will you understand just how evil Michael Vick really is and why he should still be behind bars.

Annabelle

PS
Please don’t ask me if I have the same concern for children as I do for animals.
I spent more than thirty years as an Educator and I am very proud to have made a worthy contribution in the education of each and every child I taught.

PSS PennBF I have enjoyed reading your posts as well as others who realize the seriousness of this whole issue of animal cruelty.

PSSS For anyone interested in reading how a real man treats his dog(s) please
pick up a copy of Mark Levin’s book “Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover’s Story of
Joy and Anguish”........ a great book.

Wonderful Note
 

Annabelle..What a great note..It is gratifying to know there are people
like you who are willing to rescue these poor abused animals and hold
the people responsible for their acts of cruelty. !! :bigbow:

I'll make one final comment in this thread.

1. I think every response has indicated that they abhor what Vick did to those animals.

2. Everyone can respect those that care deeply for animals and especially those that take time out of their lives to serve as rescue owners.

3. The only debate is on the subject of the fairness of the criminal justice system and the goal of rehabilitation for the offender. Some feel that he should be given a chance to redeem himself and move on with his life after serving the time and others feel that he should not or that he is not capable of changing. No need to cloud the issue with long diatribes on subjects (1 and 2) that we already agree on.

Well said Russ. The fact is that Vick satisfied his debt to society as prescribed by the court, and whether or not that was sufficient is obviously a matter of debate. Vick is not a hero to me, but I beleive in redemption and hope that he has truly changed his heart and mind. As Redwitch said so eloquently, he is making an effort above and beyond his requirements to change the hearts and minds of young people about the treatment of animals and maybe that will ultimately outweigh his odorous past.

Just Can't Get
 

Some just can't get it. I would be more than willing to discuss the subject of
"consequence's" once the person has educated themselves on the subject of
serious mental illness's and it's long term effects. This is not a traffic
violation, a petty crime of chance, etc. It is allegedly an indication of a very serious mental problem which is not correctable in a year and half of jail time.
I know this might blow the minds of some of the "give him a break" writers but there are certain mental illness's [Ref:Sociopath Next Door] (e.g. sociopaths, etc.) in which there is no known cure. Again, if someone can come back with facts which demonstrate that being an organizer and sponsor of watching animals fight and torture each other and kill each other and then go out for dinner as it is just a passing past time and the person still has a working normal conscience I would like to see these facts. I will save you the research as I seriously doubt they exist but I would be interested if you can find them..!!!:undecided:

"When dealing with people, remember you are not dealing with creatures of logic, but with creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudice, and motivated by pride and vanity”
Dale Carnegie

I know I said last word last time but I just can't help it.

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read. You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved. To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement. I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.

I guess now I'm done.

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site:)

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site:)[/QUOTE]

I'll take you up on that offer.:evil6:

Than you Russ for putting into words what I was thinking.:agree:

Education
 

I know I said last word last time but I just can't help it.
I understand?

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read.
I could not agree more with the assertion that unless you "read books" you will not understand complicated emotional problems.
If being educated on a subject and voicing facts which others will/have not
taken the time to understand make me or others "elitist" then I must confess
that I am an "elitist"..

You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved.
If you torture and kill anything for "sport" then it is a pretty safe assumption that some mental illness is involved. That is not rocket science.

To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement.

No, just those crimes that involve torture, killing, pedophiles, sexual deviants,sexual predators,...you can fill in the additional blanks. I guess the culture where drug usage and dealing is accepted makes drug dealing and selling to children just another expression of their culture.

I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.
How about identifying sexual predators? Is it not a law that they must register and tell the authorities where they are "FOR LIFE"..

I guess now I'm done.
If I gave you some curiosity to educate yourself on this subject then my time has been well spent. :undecided:

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site
__________________

"Snob" is the descriptor that comes closer to describing your stance than "elitist". Russ: don't leave, and I won't hit you in the head, your opinions and contributions are stellar.

NOTICE: This is obviously a topic some are passionate about. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. We don't and won't all agree on this topic. We ask that the thread remains civil and respectful so it can remain open. Thank you in advance.

I was just thinking that this is a true debate between Pennf and Russ Boston.

Both have made very valid points and both have made me think.

I would hate, HATE, to lose either of them from this forum.

I very much appreciate PennF's last response. I think that was very civil and I understand the opinion of those that think jail time alone is no cure. What I don't know is what Vick has undertaken since his release to rehabilitate himself. I do know that NFL commissioner Roger Goodell does not take this lightly. Vick wasn't welcomed back to the NFL without major counseling & mentoring (do a Google search on Vick & Tony Dungy for example). The NFL has suspended many players who weren't even convicted of a crime (Ben Roethlisberger for example). Unlike some sports where money is tight the NFL has no such issues.

As far as the elitist comment goes: I would never use any explanation in a reply where my knowledge (i.e. medical) was put on display and then questioned without giving a full explanation in terms that someone not in the field would understand. To me it's not right to say something and then, when questioned, just say "go read a book". TOTV is an exchange of ideas and knowledge for our mutual benefit.