[Xavier]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

Well Richie, when the TSA insists on scanning you and you invoke your God given right to privacy of your own body, I hope to be in line to watch that show. In case I am not let me know how that worked for you!

X-tra funny!

[quill]

For those of you that think the current TSA situation is acceptable, I ask what will it take to be unacceptable? The current is nothing but theater and bad theater at that. Do you really believe that TSA is stopping anything? The situation is they are just giving you a warm fussy while the rest of the airport security is a big sieve.

Take for example that the TSA employees, because they demanded and got metal police looking badges, do not go through the security that we go through. They just walk right through security. Random checks. A recent account was of a TSA person trying to carry a gun to work in a back pack.
That flight line crews, maintenance and aircraft cleaners go in through the back door at most airport through gates with swipe cards and no security.
That most airports have off airport catering, meaning that a truck delivers the aircraft food service carts to the aircraft after being filled off airport. No body checks the carts when they arrive.
That cargo in the aircraft hold is not checked, passenger bags maybe but not cargo.
That TSA puts pilots through the same crap that we go through, including taking their liquids and making them get pat downs. How much sense does that make? If a pilot wants to crash an aircraft do they need to bring anything with them? A pilot was arrested and fired after he had had enough of TSA abuse. After he was requested to take off shoes and belt he commented that he could get naked and still crash an aircraft.
So if you are willing to put up with this, it is sad. This is like a experiment by the government to see how far they can push. If you have no problem giving up your rights and freedoms then I suggest you check out a third world dictatorial country. Plenty of security there, no freedom. And please do not tell me I should just drive. If TSA really wants to make us secure then fix all the holes, do not just mess with me and try make me believe I am safe. When we as US citizens incrementally give up our rights we will find ourselves without any rights.

[skyguy79]

I can't help but wonder if there were two types of flights, A) where pat-downs were required and B) where no pat-downs were required, how many would chose A over B and visa-verse? Maybe we aught to have a poll and see what TV'ers would choose!

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by quill

For those of you that think the current TSA situation is acceptable, I ask what will it take to be unacceptable? The current is nothing but theater and bad theater at that. Do you really believe that TSA is stopping anything? The situation is they are just giving you a warm fussy while the rest of the airport security is a big sieve.

Take for example that the TSA employees, because they demanded and got metal police looking badges, do not go through the security that we go through. They just walk right through security. Random checks. A recent account was of a TSA person trying to carry a gun to work in a back pack.
That flight line crews, maintenance and aircraft cleaners go in through the back door at most airport through gates with swipe cards and no security.
That most airports have off airport catering, meaning that a truck delivers the aircraft food service carts to the aircraft after being filled off airport. No body checks the carts when they arrive.
That cargo in the aircraft hold is not checked, passenger bags maybe but not cargo.
That TSA puts pilots through the same crap that we go through, including taking their liquids and making them get pat downs. How much sense does that make? If a pilot wants to crash an aircraft do they need to bring anything with them? A pilot was arrested and fired after he had had enough of TSA abuse. After he was requested to take off shoes and belt he commented that he could get naked and still crash an aircraft.
So if you are willing to put up with this, it is sad. This is like a experiment by the government to see how far they can push. If you have no problem giving up your rights and freedoms then I suggest you check out a third world dictatorial country. Plenty of security there, no freedom. And please do not tell me I should just drive. If TSA really wants to make us secure then fix all the holes, do not just mess with me and try make me believe I am safe. When we as US citizens incrementally give up our rights we will find ourselves without any rights.

Willing to "put up with" security measures that will not only protect me, but everyone in my family and my friends and people I don't know from death by a terrorist act???

This inordinate fear of having your body touched is way more than I can understand.

Do you really believe that every single person employed in security are sexual perverts? I find your fears outside the perimeter of what I consider ordinary fear. The ONLY reason I will fly is because of these measures. Do I think that every single person is above reproach who is employed by the TSA? No, but I imagine that most of them are decent people...the way that most people are decent people.

[K9-Lovers]

If Quill has accurately described the security situation at our airports, then it seems to me that we should be working towards fixing the gaps and making those security standards higher -- instead of trying to lower the security standards for passengers.

A lot of energy is being wasted creating controversy over the wrong issues.

[quill]

It has nothing to do with being touched and everything about the process and what the government is doing. Gracie you believe that for the most part that TSA agent are good people and I agree, but I also think that 99.9999 percent of all people traveling on aircraft are good people. But we are all treated as guilty until we are scanned and patted down. If only one in a hundred TSA are bad why are you not concerned that they are not checked like we are to catch that one? My real beef is with the machines. I have been patted for years but not groped. Metal detectors are one thing but when the government starts X-raying me that is when I draw the line. We are told it is safe. How many times in everyone's memory has the government said something is ok only later to say sorry we were wrong. Even if it is safe, that assumes that the machine is set correctly, maintained and used correctly. You do not have X-ray tech running these like in hospitals. I have been told to minimize the amount of radiation I get. Difficult to do with these new machines. As for improving other areas I agree, but doubt it will come to pass. There is big money in these new machines and people are building empires off of security, but I never feel any safer when I go through security, just put upon.
Another note 40 years ago in the work I was in I got briefings on terrorism. The summation of which was that we should be aware and do our best to avoid being a victim, but if the terrorist really wanted to get us they would. And that when ever we change our lives because of something they have done then the terrorist have won by default. This issue with TSA is a prime example of them winning in my opinion.

[RichieLion]

Originally Posted by quill

It has nothing to do with being touched and everything about the process and what the government is doing. Gracie you believe that for the most part that TSA agent are good people and I agree, but I also think that 99.9999 percent of all people traveling on aircraft are good people. But we are all treated as guilty until we are scanned and patted down. If only one in a hundred TSA are bad why are you not concerned that they are not checked like we are to catch that one? My real beef is with the machines. I have been patted for years but not groped. Metal detectors are one thing but when the government starts X-raying me that is when I draw the line. We are told it is safe. How many times in everyone's memory has the government said something is ok only later to say sorry we were wrong. Even if it is safe, that assumes that the machine is set correctly, maintained and used correctly. You do not have X-ray tech running these like in hospitals. I have been told to minimize the amount of radiation I get. Difficult to do with these new machines. As for improving other areas I agree, but doubt it will come to pass. There is big money in these new machines and people are building empires off of security, but I never feel any safer when I go through security, just put upon.
Another note 40 years ago in the work I was in I got briefings on terrorism. The summation of which was that we should be aware and do our best to avoid being a victim, but if the terrorist really wanted to get us they would. And that when ever we change our lives because of something they have done then the terrorist have won by default. This issue with TSA is a prime example of them winning in my opinion.

Almost nobody on this forum cares or even reads or investigates the truth behind TSA procedures. You can show them and even link proof of the fallacy of believing that the theatre they are witnessing at the airports is somehow keeping them safe.

They will come back with opinions that basically say "As long as it keeps me safe, I have no problem with the government doing whatever they want to my body or to my children's body"; like you never linked the story that should encourage them to, at least, rethink the conviction they have.

I still can't believe the passion with which people would give up the sanctity to their own bodies, and worse, their children's bodies to a government agent who has no excuse or cause to molest them.

Benjamin Franklin's warning to his fellow Americans was never more relevant than now, but I will still be the one mostly ridiculed by others for trying to maintain my basic freedoms. I really cannot believe it.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by RichieLion

Almost nobody on this forum cares or even reads or investigates the truth behind TSA procedures. You can show them and even link proof of the fallacy of believing that the theatre they are witnessing at the airports is somehow keeping them safe.

They will come back with opinions that basically say "As long as it keeps me safe, I have no problem with the government doing whatever they want to my body or to my children's body"; like you never linked the story that should encourage them to, at least, rethink the conviction they have.

I still can't believe the passion with which people would give up the sanctity to their own bodies, and worse, their children's bodies to a government agent who has no excuse or cause to molest them.

Benjamin Franklin's warning to his fellow Americans was never more relevant than now, but I will still be the one mostly ridiculed by others for trying to maintain my basic freedoms. I really cannot believe it.

I think.....

This sanctity thing (not forgetting that the Church says that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit) is when someone is trying to have sex with you and you don't want them to.

Kate has to fly for her work. Kate is not only intelligent and hard working but she is fair in her assessments. I know her, I have been in her home. She is a reasonable person. She has that wonderful and very rare commodity called common sense.

People who are in and out of airports all of the time have more familiarity with the processes than people who haven't flown ever or never or rarely.

I agree with frequent scans being dangerous.

Benjamin Franklin was one heck of a sage and a wonderful person but he didn't fly.

If we can deter one terrorist from blowing up one person than all of the stuff is working at least to the family of the person who is not dead.

I am afraid of a lot of things. Some more than others. I am courageous about some things, some more than others. I am just like most people. I choose what I want to do and I don't embrace huge ideas that have some faults in them. I pick and choose my philosophies. Right is still right and wrong is still wrong but the world changes. We have to change with the world.

Not even the smartest people or the best people or the most dedicated people or the bravest people can keep bad things from happening. But they can reasonably try. It is just that the conception of bad is different each day....even though the morality of good people is still against evil.

Richie Lion, I think you want to protect me and others with your sincere idea on this and I want to protect me and others with mine.

Only God knows who is rightest.

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I think.....

This sanctity thing (not forgetting that the Church says that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit) is when someone is trying to have sex with you and you don't want them to.

Kate has to fly for her work. Kate is not only intelligent and hard working but she is fair in her assessments. I know her, I have been in her home. She is a reasonable person. She has that wonderful and very rare commodity called common sense.

People who are in and out of airports all of the time have more familiarity with the processes than people who haven't flown ever or never or rarely.

I agree with frequent scans being dangerous.

Benjamin Franklin was one heck of a sage and a wonderful person but he didn't fly.

If we can deter one terrorist from blowing up one person than all of the stuff is working at least to the family of the person who is not dead.

I am afraid of a lot of things. Some more than others. I am courageous about some things, some more than others. I am just like most people. I choose what I want to do and I don't embrace huge ideas that have some faults in them. I pick and choose my philosophies. Right is still right and wrong is still wrong but the world changes. We have to change with the world.

Not even the smartest people or the best people or the most dedicated people or the bravest people can keep bad things from happening. But they can reasonably try. It is just that the conception of bad is different each day....even though the morality of good people is still against evil.

Richie Lion, I think you want to protect me and others with your sincere idea on this and I want to protect me and others with mine.

Only God knows who is rightest.

...again a voice of common sense and practicality. No HIGH horse for her. Ya gotta love this woman.

Xavier

[katezbox]

Originally Posted by Xavier

...again a voice of common sense and practicality. No HIGH horse for her. Ya gotta love this woman.

Xavier

Yes we do!

I can't tell you if any airline TSA or service employees get in through the "back door." I DO know - having seen it happen - that immediately after 9/11 that they did. I sent a letter to the NSA (no Homeland Security then) about the risks this represented. Many other travelers around that time (approx 9/21/2001) also sent letters.... After about 6 months, I have never seen the BudLight guy entering from anywhere but through security... same goes for employees and crew. BTW, employees, TSA and crew do get to "go to the head of the line", but their stuff does get scanned, as do they.

Richie, I do believe you are passionate about this. But, the bad guys are looking for ways to get through each and every day. The scans are highly effective at spotting weapons being carried.

Both you and Quill have sidestepped the "political" side of this issue: namely, that this was never questioned when these scanners were initiated (with a Republican in the White House). Oh, also, I think that TSA being part of a "government agency" (oops - GWB started that one too), is also a reason that states are initiating these measures. And, just to get it out there - no. I am not a Democrat or a Liberal - just a moderate who has already flown four times this month and would like dialogue, not words of mass destruction.

[quill]

We all make decisions on a daily basis about what we will and will not do. Some of those are based on fear. I have made the decision to get on an aircraft hundreds of times in my life. I have always thought the threat to me was minimum. In fact I will as far as to say that if the airport security were to be rolled back to pre 911 that you would still be safer on an aircraft statistically than you are in a car driving to the airport. 911 was horrible and I am not trying to downplay it in any way, it was however only one day of 3 events. A paradigm shift occurred that day with the flying public on aircraft and is to long winded to go on about here, but I believe things have changed to a degree that an aircraft will not be taken again as it was on 911, because passengers will rise up and prevent the aircraft from being taken. According to google there have been approx 100 worldwide hijackings since the 1950s out of all the millions upon millions of flights that have occurred. So how high is the threat? Like I said I think that riding in a car is worse. So if a car is more dangerous and drunk drivers are the threat on the road, then we should all agree that every vehicle will have a breathalyzer installed that one has to breath into prior to engine start. If everyone agrees this is acceptable then what is the next step in taking away our rights. Because what we are saying with the breathalyzer is that you are guilty until you prove you are innocent and are allowed to drive. If you do not believe that the breathalyzer is a good idea, because it is an invasion of privacy and against the basic law of the land, then why is what the TSA is doing acceptable. We are having to prove we are not guilty by being searched. The 4th Amendment protects us against these types of searches. Please do not start about what actions in our daily lives are rights vs privileges etc. To say I should not fly because the government wants to perpetuate an illusion is wrong. Where do we as a populace draw the line?

[Tbugs]

Your rights are NOT being infinged upon by airport screeners and scanners. It is a safety issue and nothing more.

Are your 2nd Amendment rights being infringed upon when you cannot step out on the golf course and shoot at the white ibis? No, this is a safety issue, too.

Richie is just kind of obsessed about body scanners and screeners - yet he admits he does not fly nor does he know anyone who personally has been "violated" by a screener.

Richie, I think we should sit down and get to know each other over a beer someday.

Quill just seems to be trying to make it a "my rights are beng taken away" issue.

Hey, guys, it is a safety issue. If you do not want to fly and you think your children are being sexually molested by screeners, drive or stay home. Rules are rules.

Your rights are NOT being denied - you just have to obey the rules - rules that were made for your well-being.

Yes, your Ben Franklin quotes are cute but remember, he lived in a time when there were no AK-47's, no semi-automatic pistols with high capacity magazines, no cars that could go 120 mph, and Franklin thought the Bald Eagle was a cowardly bird and that the turkey should be the national symbol of America.

[quill]

Tbugs I do not believe you read any of my posts very closely. If you really believe it is just as simple as a safety issue then I ask why are you not more concerned about all the security holes in an airport access. The only people really affected by this theater are the passengers and aircrew. Somebody said earlier that they and others had fixed the holes after 911 by writing letters, well then why within the last year was a pilot that filmed the card swipe gate I was talking about and other areas of access, being threaten by TSA for disclosing the info. He was just showing what most people do not know or care to understand. And if everyone is so concerned about security what sense does it make to put pilot through this theater. It just makes the lines longer at security. As I said they do not need to have anything to do damage. I keep asking what the line is that everyone is willing to draw over which they will not put up with this anymore? Should we start x-raying everyone that goes to school, the mall, church, etc. etc. etc.? I think Richie is correct most of you do not want to really consider this in the bigger context that it should be seen in. If I really thought I was safer because of this theater I would be willing to go along.

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by quill

Tbugs I do not believe you read any of my posts very closely. If you really believe it is just as simple as a safety issue then I ask why are you not more concerned about all the security holes in an airport access. The only people really affected by this theater are the passengers and aircrew. Somebody said earlier that they and others had fixed the holes after 911 by writing letters, well then why within the last year was a pilot that filmed the card swipe gate I was talking about and other areas of access, being threaten by TSA for disclosing the info. He was just showing what most people do not know or care to understand. And if everyone is so concerned about security what sense does it make to put pilot through this theater. It just makes the lines longer at security. As I said they do not need to have anything to do damage. I keep asking what the line is that everyone is willing to draw over which they will not put up with this anymore? Should we start x-raying everyone that goes to school, the mall, church, etc. etc. etc.? I think Richie is correct most of you do not want to really consider this in the bigger context that it should be seen in. If I really thought I was safer because of this theater I would be willing to go along.

You are obviously very concerned about this and maybe we all should be. I guess that is something for all of us to contemplate. Since I personally haven't jumped on that bandwagon yet, what is it that YOU and Richie are going to do about it besides educate the rest of us and not fly?

Xavier

[Tbugs]

Actually, Quill, there are metal detectors in court houses and, yes, even schools. Students do bring handguns and knives to school.

You state that if this "theater" would actually make it safer to fly, you would go along with it. Well, if you go to the airport and refuse the screeners and/or scanners, you will not fly. You have no choice except to go along with it.

As I said in my previous posts, no one in this forum has personally been subjected to the "groping of private areas" nor has been bothered with the scanning. This is a non-issue.

The bill in New Hampshire will never make it to a vote and is just political puffery.

Let's move on to a new topic.