[Polar Bear]

I haven't posted on Twitter in a long time. (Maybe not ever?) But this last attack on our innocent children motivated me to do so. I posted this...verbatim...on #ProtectOurChildren...

I don't mean ban all guns. I don't mean arm all teachers. But sensible national gun laws, a reasonable armed security presence, and secured point-entry to our schools would be a good start. We have to work together! My way or the highway won't work.

Sensible, reasonable discussion please.

[Coal Miner]

I agree

[MikeV]

There is nothing stopping schools from doing all you say. The latest as well as all other shooters violated at least a dozen laws. More laws will not help. Gun free zones is the common denominator.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ColdNoMore]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

I haven't posted on Twitter in a long time. (Maybe not ever?) But this last attack on our innocent children motivated me to do so. I posted this...verbatim...on #ProtectOurChildren...

I don't mean ban all guns. I don't mean arm all teachers. But sensible national gun laws, a reasonable armed security presence, and secured point-entry to our schools would be a good start. We have to work together! My way or the highway won't work.

Sensible, reasonable discussion please.

I totally agree.

The question though, is how do we counteract the money, power and influence the NRA wields with the politicians...since they are adamantly opposed to ANY new gun laws?

Sandy Hook should have initiated this conversation almost 6 years ago, but if the slaughter of 20 six and seven year olds couldn't move the needle...what in the he!! will?


Especially when you have people believing nutjobs like Alex Jones...in that Sandy Hook never even happened?

[Fredster]

Originally Posted by MikeV

There is nothing stopping schools from doing all you say. The latest as well as all other shooters violated at least a dozen laws. More laws will not help. Gun free zones is the common denominator.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Kenswing]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

I totally agree.

The question though, is how do we counteract the money, power and influence the NRA wields with the politicians...since they are adamantly opposed to ANY new gun laws?

Sandy Hook should have initiated this conversation almost 6 years ago, but if the slaughter of 20 six and seven year olds couldn't move the needle...what in the he!! will?


Especially when you have people believing nutjobs like Alex Jones...in that Sandy Hook never even happened?

I'm just curious. What new gun laws would you propose? I'm pretty sure if someone is willing to break the law against killing people, which is the most basic law of all, they're not likely to follow any new gun law that anyone can think up.

We need to figure out why kids feel the answer to their problems is killing other kids. In my opinion the guy that posted in the other thread about technology and the social disconnect of a good part of this generation is a leading contributor.

There have been guns around for as long as we have been a nation. It's just in modern times that we've seen the widespread mass killings. And this one wasn't even with an "assault" rifle. It was with weapons that are about as low tech as you can get.

We need to get to the root problem. Why do kids resort to mass killings as a form of conflict resolution?

[ColdNoMore]

Originally Posted by Kenswing

I'm just curious. What new gun laws would you propose? I'm pretty sure if someone is willing to break the law against killing people, which is the most basic law of all, they're not likely to follow any new gun law that anyone can think up.

We need to figure out why kids feel the answer to their problems is killing other kids. In my opinion the guy that posted in the other thread about technology and the social disconnect of a good part of this generation is a leading contributor.

There have been guns around for as long as we have been a nation. It's just in modern times that we've seen the widespread mass killings. And this one wasn't even with an "assault" rifle. It was with weapons that are about as low tech as you can get.

We need to get to the root problem. Why are kids doing this?

Well, on what gun laws could help...let's start with a really easy one.

Are bumpstocks illegal on a federal level yet?

Why not?

I think we all know why.

It's for the exact same reason that someone talked big about... "others are afraid of the NRA, but I'm not."

That is until they had a lunch date with the NRA...then nothing but crickets.

And how about we start holding those parents who have made easy access to guns...accountable also?

As for one of the big reasons regarding "why" it has become more prevalent.. that was addressed in the other thread also.

Santa Fe High School student claims students and coaches '''emotionally bullied''' suspected shooter

A student who survived the Texas school shooting on Friday has spoken out about the accused gunman, saying that he was 'emotionally bullied' by his classmates and coaches.

But since bullying is condoned, little action taken, loud voices saying "you just need to put your big boy pants on and take it, since it never harmed me" and actually perpetuated by our national leaders...fat chance that will work either.

[Fredster]

“We need to get to the root problem. Why do kids resort to mass killings as a form of conflict resolution?”

That makes sense to me, since most of the
shooters in the mass school shootings are either
students or former students.
What is happening (or not happening) in our society,
in recent years that affects some kids in very negative ways!

[Kenswing]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

Well, on what gun laws could help...let's start with a really easy one.

Are bumpstocks illegal on a federal level yet?

Why not?

I think we all know why.

It's for the exact same reason that someone talked big about... "others are afraid of the NRA, but I'm not."

That is until they had a lunch date with the NRA...then nothing but crickets.

I have no problem outlawing bumpstocks. But do you really think that will stop kids or anyone else from committing these atrocities? Most people didn't even know what a bumpstock was until the Vegas killings?

And how about we start holding those parents who have made easy access to guns...accountable also?

I agree for the most part. A 17 year old shouldn't have unfettered access to firearms. But as stated in several threads by other posters, guns were a part of growing up for a good number of us. It was not unusual to have a rifle in a rack in your truck if you were going hunting after school. But times have changed. Kids have changed.

Parents NEED to be held accountable for securing weapons when not being used.

As for one of the big reasons regarding "why" it has become more prevalent.. that was addressed in the other thread also.

Santa Fe High School student claims students and coaches '''emotionally bullied''' suspected shooter



But since bullying is condoned, little action taken, loud voices saying "you just need to put your big boy pants on and take it, since it never harmed me" and actually perpetuated by our national leaders...fat chance that will work either.

I also agree with this. Although school bullying has been a problem that a lot of schools and communities are trying to address. At least they recognize it as a problem. If in fact this kid was bullied, especially by staff members that certainly requires action.

As we all know, there is no simple answer. I just don't see how new laws will discourage would be murderers from carrying out the evil they are intent on committing.

[Trayderjoe]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

I haven't posted on Twitter in a long time. (Maybe not ever?) But this last attack on our innocent children motivated me to do so. I posted this...verbatim...on #ProtectOurChildren...

I don't mean ban all guns. I don't mean arm all teachers. But sensible national gun laws, a reasonable armed security presence, and secured point-entry to our schools would be a good start. We have to work together! My way or the highway won't work.

Sensible, reasonable discussion please.

Originally Posted by MikeV

There is nothing stopping schools from doing all you say. The latest as well as all other shooters violated at least a dozen laws. More laws will not help. Gun free zones is the common denominator.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Mike is correct. More laws aren't the answer as the majority, i.e. the law abiding citizens, are already following the laws. Instead of discussing additional gun laws that the criminals won't follow anyway, we should be questioning why the national background check database is not being kept current. Or how about the numerous system failures that have been documented such as "troubling" social media posts, or students notifying adults of their concerns about a fellow/former student? Or the failure by our criminal system? Add in the HIPPA issues that prevents identifying those patients who suffer from specific mental health issues that should preclude them from obtaining a firearm. If these system failures continue, the cycle will repeat itself no matter how many laws are on the books.

Hardening the school system is an option that unfortunately should be explored, be it by adding police officers to the schools, enabling teachers who want to carry a gun to do so with the proper training, or perhaps engaging with our veterans and hiring them to help. Schools could lock down the doorways and have students enter and exit from one passageway, most likely with metal detectors utilized. Any option will have downstream impact that will also need to be addressed such as tax increases to pay for more police officers, students needing to be at school sooner in order to pass through a controlled checkpoint to enter the school, etc.

In order to make actual progress, inflammatory, inaccurate reporting (such as continually misrepresenting what an AR-15 rifle actually is, or claiming that no background checks are done at gun shows) must stop as it only fuels the fire. Let's also stop giving these criminals what they want, notoriety. Stop putting their names and pictures on the news 24/7 for weeks on end. In fact, don't show their photos or reveal their names at all if they have been apprehended. Why does the general public need to know who the criminal is or what they look like if they have already been arrested? What would we do with that information? I agree if the shooter is at large, then getting their name/photo out is important, but the tag-along information (such as is wanted for shooting xx number of people at xxxx) can be minimized. Merely indicate that this is a person of interest who is considered armed and dangerous and to call police if the person is spotted.

[Trayderjoe]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

I totally agree.

The question though, is how do we counteract the money, power and influence the NRA wields with the politicians...since they are adamantly opposed to ANY new gun laws?......

Well let's see, under current law

In addition to requiring firearm dealers, manufacturers, and importers to initiate a background check on any non-licensee to whom they intend to transfer a firearm, and prohibiting the possession of firearms by nine categories of prohibited persons under federal law. While a person may advertise a firearm on the internet:

Federal law prohibits transferring a firearm to anyone known or believed to be prohibited from possessing firearms. (18 USC992(d))
Federal law prohibits a non-licensee from acquiring a handgun outside his state of residence and prohibits a non-licensee from acquiring a rifle or shotgun from a non-licensee outside his state of residence. (18 USC 992(a)(3))
Federal law prohibits anyone from transferring a handgun to a non-licensee who resides in another state (with rare exceptions), and prohibits a non-licensee from transferring any firearm to a non-licensee who resides in another state. (18 USC 922(a)(5))
Federal law prohibits the acquisition of a firearm on behalf of a person who is prohibited from possessing firearms. (18 USC 922(h) and 922(a)(6))
Federal law prohibits anyone from providing a handgun to a juvenile (person under age 18), and prohibits juveniles from possessing handguns, with limited exceptions. (18 USC 922(x))
Federal law also prohibits dealers from selling rifles or shotguns to persons under age 18. (18 USC 922(b)(1))

Originally Posted by Kenswing

I'm just curious. What new gun laws would you propose? I'm pretty sure if someone is willing to break the law against killing people, which is the most basic law of all, they're not likely to follow any new gun law that anyone can think up.

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

Well, on what gun laws could help...let's start with a really easy one.

Are bumpstocks illegal on a federal level yet?

Why not?

I think we all know why.

Hmmmm......The President has called for a ban on bumpstocks as reported by CNN (link here)

The NRA has called on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to immediately review if these devices comply with federal law (linked here) and if additional regulation is needed.

Perhaps it is because as a nation of laws, it does take time. Perhaps if the legislation was written to cover bumpstocks specifically and not try to overreach by including other gun parts, types of guns, then the legislation might go through sooner. The more complex that a legislation is, the longer it will take to pass. And yes, there should be opposition to overreaching laws meant to "back door" their way around ANY constitutional amendment.

But I am not sure as to the why you are referencing, so please provide your facts and links.

Also, please explain how Chicago, with the most restrictive guns laws in the country, still has a high hand gun homicide rate. If it doesn't work in Chicago, how would more gun laws work anywhere else?

It's for the exact same reason that someone talked big about... "others are afraid of the NRA, but I'm not."

That is until they had a lunch date with the NRA...then nothing but crickets.

And you have specific knowledge of this? You know this for a fact?

And how about we start holding those parents who have made easy access to guns...accountable also?

Now this is an extremely valid point. Another active thread about cars being left unlocked and guns being stolen from those cars-those gun owners should also be held accountable.

As for one of the big reasons regarding "why" it has become more prevalent.. that was addressed in the other thread also.

Santa Fe High School student claims students and coaches '''emotionally bullied''' suspected shooter

But since bullying is condoned, little action taken, loud voices saying "you just need to put your big boy pants on and take it, since it never harmed me" and actually perpetuated by our national leaders...fat chance that will work either.

Please, please provide a link to support your reference that the national leaders perpetuate the bullying. The most that I can find is a posting by Dan Zimmerman "Putting His Big Boy Pants On – Quote of the Day" in reference to David Hogg. Make sure that you read the actual open letter (link here) by Jack Kerwick to which Zimmerman is referencing before making any leaps there.

Originally Posted by Kenswing

We need to figure out why kids feel the answer to their problems is killing other kids. In my opinion the guy that posted in the other thread about technology and the social disconnect of a good part of this generation is a leading contributor.

There have been guns around for as long as we have been a nation. It's just in modern times that we've seen the widespread mass killings. And this one wasn't even with an "assault" rifle. It was with weapons that are about as low tech as you can get.

We need to get to the root problem. Why do kids resort to mass killings as a form of conflict resolution?

Good question.

[graciegirl]

It is as foolish to blame the NRA as it is to not see that it is HOW are children are raised now. We don't give them a gun, we give them computers that allow them to know the good and the evil of the planet and explore it without us. We turn them over wearing diapers to people that we would not allow to drive our cars. We think that they are only influenced when we pick them up after nine hours of being taught by people with totally different value systems. We think that the big house, the fine car, the great clothes and the delivered meals make up for not spending time with our babies during their six important formative years.

We have choices as a people and a society. I don't condemn our lawmakers as much as I condemn those who look down on people who are moral and have values and who believe in God. Or don't believe in God but have morals and values and ethics. It isn't what we TELL our children, it is who they are WITH, that they will become. They are denied the redirection they need as toddlers not to bully others, or the sitting on the hearth or with their noses in the corners because who would allow someone else to punish their children for kicking another four year old, or taking their toys and laughing? We don't even KNOW when this happens and worse yet, we are no longer taught as adults that this time of their lives is important in their formation of character.

We don't even know. We give them away unprotected and expect them to figure this little big world out for themselves. We only start to worry about their mental health and values long after they are harmed or formed in early childhood. Worrying about teenagers is TOO LATE.

The hands that rock the cradles, or DON'T rock the cradles, rule the world.

[ColdNoMore]

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

Well let's see, under current law

In addition to requiring firearm dealers, manufacturers, and importers to initiate a background check on any non-licensee to whom they intend to transfer a firearm, and prohibiting the possession of firearms by nine categories of prohibited persons under federal law. While a person may advertise a firearm on the internet:

Federal law prohibits transferring a firearm to anyone known or believed to be prohibited from possessing firearms. (18 USC992(d))
Federal law prohibits a non-licensee from acquiring a handgun outside his state of residence and prohibits a non-licensee from acquiring a rifle or shotgun from a non-licensee outside his state of residence. (18 USC 992(a)(3))
Federal law prohibits anyone from transferring a handgun to a non-licensee who resides in another state (with rare exceptions), and prohibits a non-licensee from transferring any firearm to a non-licensee who resides in another state. (18 USC 922(a)(5))
Federal law prohibits the acquisition of a firearm on behalf of a person who is prohibited from possessing firearms. (18 USC 922(h) and 922(a)(6))
Federal law prohibits anyone from providing a handgun to a juvenile (person under age 18), and prohibits juveniles from possessing handguns, with limited exceptions. (18 USC 922(x))
Federal law also prohibits dealers from selling rifles or shotguns to persons under age 18. (18 USC 922(b)(1))

This is for your previous post also, where you lied and tried to misdirect about..

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

. (...."or claiming that no background checks are done at gun shows")

First of all, you're being disingenuous in saying "NO" background checks are done"...as that is NOT what is being said. Licensed dealers are still required to perform the checks at gun shows...and no one is saying otherwise.

You also know that because of the 'loophole' that only requires 'gun dealers' to perform background checks (NOT private sellers), even those at gun shows...you're simply trying to deflect.

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

Hmmmm......The President has called for a ban on bumpstocks as reported by CNN (link here)

The NRA has called on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to immediately review if these devices comply with federal law (linked here) and if additional regulation is needed.

LOL

"Called for" yet has done NOTHING since the NRA lunch...to push it along.

As for the NRA giving 'lip-service' to banning bumpstocks, here's the typical gun-nut site on that subject. Which people like yourself, are the ones demanding that the NRA virulently resist ANY new laws.

I encourage reasonable people to read the entire opinion screed (link below) and judge for yourself...from whence the opposition arises.
ATF Discovers a New Meaning of 'Automatic' to Regulate Bump-Stocks

the purpose of the Second Amendment’s protection against a tyrannical government

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

Perhaps it is because as a nation of laws, it does take time. Perhaps if the legislation was written to cover bumpstocks specifically and not try to overreach by including other gun parts, types of guns, then the legislation might go through sooner. The more complex that a legislation is, the longer it will take to pass. And yes, there should be opposition to overreaching laws meant to "back door" their way around ANY constitutional amendment.

But I am not sure as to the why you are referencing, so please provide your facts and links.

BS!

The entire goal and sentiment by hardcore gun-lovers, as shown above in the link, is to drag out the process, twist the arms of politicians with the money & power the NRA wields...and wait for the next news cycle and hope people forget about it.

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

Also, please explain how Chicago, with the most restrictive guns laws in the country, still has a high hand gun homicide rate. If it doesn't work in Chicago, how would more gun laws work anywhere else?

The favorite excuse to try and convince people...not to do ANYTHING.

I also suggest reasonable people read this article in its entirety.
Fact Check: Is Chicago Proof That Gun Laws Don't Work? : NPR

Quibbling over exactly what part of the U.S. is No. 1 in terms of gun-law strictness, however, isn't the most compelling part of Sanders' statement. She also said that having gun regulations "certainly hasn't helped" in Chicago.

That's a much more controversial claim — and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

And you have specific knowledge of this? You know this for a fact?

Oh wow, you didn't really go there...did you?

I appreciate the opportunity to present facts though.

Trump appears to backpedal on gun control remarks after NRA meeting | The Independent

But Chris Cox, the NRA’s chief lobbyist, suggested the President had reversed his position following a White House meeting, and wanted “safe schools, mental health reform and to keep guns away from dangerous people”.

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

Please, please provide a link to support your reference that the national leaders perpetuate the bullying.

ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS?!

In an effort to keep this thread from being shut down due to too much politics, the response to your hilarious question can be answered in three words (or 280 characters)... JUST READ TWITTER!



This sad, but true, cartoon succinctly demonstrates yours and so many other...gun-lovers true position.

But sorry, too many children have died...for it to continue.

[Trayderjoe]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

It is as foolish to blame the NRA as it is to not see that it is HOW are children are raised now. We don't give them a gun, we give them computers that allow them to know the good and the evil of the planet and explore it without us. We turn them over wearing diapers to people that we would not allow to drive our cars. We think that they are only influenced when we pick them up after nine hours of being taught by people with totally different value systems. We think that the big house, the fine car, the great clothes and the delivered meals make up for not spending time with our babies during their six important formative years.

We have choices as a people and a society. I don't condemn our lawmakers as much as I condemn those who look down on people who are moral and have values and who believe in God. Or don't believe in God but have morals and values and ethics. It isn't what we TELL our children, it is who they are WITH, that they will become. They are denied the redirection they need as toddlers not to bully others, or the sitting on the hearth or with their noses in the corners because who would allow someone else to punish their children for kicking another four year old, or taking their toys and laughing? We don't even KNOW when this happens and worse yet, we are no longer taught as adults that this time of their lives is important in their formation of character.

We don't even know. We give them away unprotected and expect them to figure this little big world out for themselves. We only start to worry about their mental health and values long after they are harmed or formed in early childhood. Worrying about teenagers is TOO LATE.

The hands that rock the cradles, or DON'T rock the cradles, rule the world.

Amen Gracie, Amen.

[Bay Kid]

They could try putting God back in school.