[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by tomwed

When I was old enough to be an alter boy I asked if I could join. My friends were accepted and I was turned down and instead they made me a patrol boy. My big job was to safely get kindergartners and first graders across a busy street. We had 2 parish priests, one was fun to be with and a bit of a ladies man. We figured that out as we became of age. The other was angry most of the time and as little ones we were scared of him. He was my second cousin. I remember telling my mother that I get nervous around him, lot's of kids did. He could be violent but as kids we thought that was a justifiable option. My mother sent me to my grandmother who told me that as kids he was called Fat Little Andy. I think Fat Little Andy blackballed me from being an Alter Boy. The nun told me that I wasn't very good in English and not bright enough to be an Alter Boy. I just wanted to get out of class for funerals and make tips, just like my friends. Maybe they knew. I also could make my friends break up when they were supposed to be quiet. Maybe that was it. I never heard of anything improper in my Parish but still wonder why I was excluded. As kids we did live in fear more then respect for the clergy.

I was raised a Lutheran so some of these kind of problems did not present themselves. I did go to BYU Law School on a Merit Scholarship in 1982 but realized quickly that I would not be able to live up the the rigid moral code that they had. And I was about the only unmarried guy at that law school. Which only had a handful of women law students. Plus my roommate was a recent convert to Mormonism and wanted to gain points with his new religious leaders by converting me. The women in the BYU dorm also had me lined up for the alter, so to speak, as soon as they found out I was a single law student at BYU.


Soon went to a very expensive Methodist university -- the U of Denver-- where the men and women acted like you would expect 20+ years old to act. Drugs, sex, and rock and roll, etc. Not mine so much as I did still carry the world view that at one time had made BYU look OK. Us librarianship graduate students liked to party.

I had met Mormons in Reno, Nevada that really old gave their moral code lip service. But at BYU you have all kinds of eyes and ears on you all the time.

Did go to the U of MN Law School in 1986 which had more women than men in its starting Class of 1989 but they kept us so busy the First Year of law school that I doubt if many of us thought of anything but law books.

[PennBF]

Spelling of "Nun's" is not important as all know who is being addressed. It is critical to remember that Nun's have no power. The power is with the priests. Where is the best hiding place for a pedophile? In the church? It is not a crime limited to the Catholic Church although the basic behavioral requirements to be a Priest is more favorable to this terrible problem. Nun's are essentially a "servant" of the Priest so to bring them into the equation is unfair although some also have their problems with this behavior.
As long as the Vatican tolerates this by neglecting to install the equivalent consequences it will continue and my guess would be at the same level as today. We should all feel bad for the life long harm this does to a child.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by PennBF

Spelling of "Nun's" is not important as all know who is being addressed. It is critical to remember that Nun's have no power. The power is with the priests. Where is the best hiding place for a pedophile? In the church? It is not a crime limited to the Catholic Church although the basic behavioral requirements to be a Priest is more favorable to this terrible problem. Nun's are essentially a "servant" of the Priest so to bring them into the equation is unfair although some also have their problems with this behavior.
As long as the Vatican tolerates this by neglecting to install the equivalent consequences it will continue and my guess would be at the same level as today. We should all feel bad for the life long harm this does to a child.

The nuns and other female nurturing elements in the Catholic Church do need to have a lot more power in that political structure. I heard a nun pretty much say that yesterday when they had a segment on the Pope visiting Ireland. This was on CBS News last night or maybe the day before.

[blueash]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Gay men preying on boys they are supposed to be educating and protecting.

Gay men should be allowed to marry other gay men. Or date them. Some of the Catholic morality just does not seem to recognize real life situations. Maybe they would not prey on boys if they had the possibility of dating other gay men.

No, double no, triple no. This is not an issue of gay men. Gay men are not pedophiles. Normal straight men do not seek or abuse underage girls or children as sex objects. Normal gay men do not seek or abuse underage boys as sex objects.
The issue is not sexual orientation. The issue is pedophilia.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by blueash

No, double no, triple no. This is not an issue of gay men. Gay men are not pedophiles. Normal straight men do not seek or abuse underage girls or children as sex objects. Normal gay men do not seek or abuse underage boys as sex objects.
The issue is not sexual orientation. The issue is pedophilia.

I never said they were. I did write that they should do away with celibacy as a concept in the Catholic Church. It ignores basic human needs of intimacy. Any many of these men are gay judging by their attraction to boys and probably to other men. But older men would be harder to control for these priests. They do not go after girls in their care. If there are any. A lot of this seems to be about power and control. And manipulation.

[spring_chicken]

Originally Posted by billethkid

Just like Hollywood, corporate America, Congress, etc, etc.......just about anyplace where males and females co-exist, haves and have nots, upper and lower class, etc.

The common denominator?
Males and females present!!

Another pattern is how such goings on can be kept secret for years and years and then all of a sudden "discovered" and then the me too multitudes come forward.

None of the above is intended as support for the wrong doings. Just merely pointing out the unfortunate reality of certain events/environments.

Others are referring to the RAPE of CHILDREN, you bring up workplace sexual harassment?
I know the OP was about nuns, but the thread was quickly derailed to the children and the massive coverup.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by blueash

No, double no, triple no. This is not an issue of gay men. Gay men are not pedophiles. Normal straight men do not seek or abuse underage girls or children as sex objects. Normal gay men do not seek or abuse underage boys as sex objects.
The issue is not sexual orientation. The issue is pedophilia.

Exactly. But pedophilia is a sexual orientation, I think. But as you say, it is not homosexuality at all. Victims don't become homosexuals because they have been victimized by a pedophile, but they carry the memory of the pain and ugliness for their whole lives. Both men and women can be pedophiles.

We cannot really teach about this, because I don't think any valid studies have been made on the subject. My opinion is that a person is born with their sexual orientation. It cannot be changed by therapy or punishment so the behavior continues for a persons life. Pedophilia seeks gratification from unwilling, weaker children and is heinous to us. I think that the whole sexual orientation thing is emotional and confusing because we only really know and understand our own. And may be repulsed by others. Most people are comfortable about what consenting adults do in private. I know I am, but pedophilia is extremely disturbing to me and most.

Now that I know that pedophiles are drawn toward groups and organizations that are trusting, I look back and wonder about a lot of situations in scout and church groups that didn't ever directly affect me. Our public grade school principal was a pedophile. He committed suicide in the school basement after it was discovered he had impregnated a sixth grader. Now I find myself suspicious of male grade school teachers. We cannot help our questioning, or our instinctive reactions. I have often thought pedophiles should be castrated.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by spring_chicken

Others are referring to the RAPE of CHILDREN, you bring up workplace sexual harassment?
I know the OP was about nuns, but the thread was quickly derailed to the children and the massive coverup.

Billethekid just brought up another issue that involves sexual activity. He is a very thoughtful poster and like most of us, discussions about one thing on this forum leads us to think about other related issues.

Many of us grew up not hearing sexual matters discussed and now find the world discussing all sorts of things relating to sex. I know one thing, sex is a powerful force. Every person in a huge stadium all got here because of it. We need to understand it and respect it. It has felled strong governments and destroyed civilizations. It has also cemented good and loving relationships, inspired art and music and is in general a wonderful thing.


.

[Nucky]

Priest should be allowed to marry, period.

Those found guilty should be punished immediately. Those who covered up what they knew should be punished.

The Nuns never Rat on the Priest because they had to Change Their Habits.

Proud non practicing Catholic but sick over this situation, just terrible. Those poor children. How can they be helped? Help them first then deal with the scum who hid behind the church.

Reminds me of Ray Donovan, permanent damage I think, what a sin.

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by billethkid

In any population, group, gathering, membership, et al, there will always be a statistical opportunity for a bad act/actor or mis-deed, serious or other wise.

The isolated or minority representation, like this subject, and unfortunately too many others, tend to be presented as general conditions when they are not.

Those of us who have been catholic all our lives most likely have never or will become aware of serious incident.
Eighty years, catholic schools including college and many churches over our life time.....no hint of wrong doing anywhere....which is the more typical representation.

General conditions derived from isolated incidents are very mis-leading.

With all due respect, despite your, or any individual's experience, these incidents are far from isolated events. They are widespread and systematic. I am afraid that trying to excuse them as isolated or overblown tends to perpetuate the problem.

[Taltarzac725]

Do Catholic priests have a worse abuse problem than most? - xkcd

Found this very interesting about Catholics and insurance carriers with respect to abuse by priests.

Since the mid-1980s, insurance companies have offered sexual misconduct coverage as a rider on liability insurance, and their own studies indicate that Catholic churches are not higher risk than other congregations. Insurance companies that cover all denominations, such as Guide One Center for Risk Management, which has more than 40,000 church clients, does not charge Catholic churches higher premiums. "We don't see vast difference in the incidence rate between one denomination and another," says Sarah Buckley, assistant vice president of corporate communications. "It's pretty even across the denominations."

From the link which is from something else.

[SFSkol]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Exactly. But pedophilia is a sexual orientation, I think......

Quite a very controversial position.
Scholar Calls Pedophilia 'An Unchangeable Sexual Orientation' that Should Be Accepted by Society | CBN News

Moreso, pedophila is an opportunistic crime, not a specific orientation.

Growing up in Catholic Brooklyn, one of my childhood aspirations was to be an altar boy. Father John was fond of rewarding us trainees with a swat on the rear. This plus Nuns rapping my hands with a ruler for writing left-handed, quickly turned me away from organized religion.

[graciegirl]

Sorry. WAY too much time on my hands.

[ColdNoMore]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

With all due respect, despite your, or any individual's experience, these incidents are far from isolated events. They are widespread and systematic. I am afraid that trying to excuse them as isolated or overblown tends to perpetuate the problem.

ABSOLUTELY!!

[My Post]

Interesting thread to read. Interesting opinions. Life long Catholic. I'm about done. Someone said to me the other day, why would anyone listen to the words of people alive in the bronze age? They didn't know where the sun "went" at night. They didn't know the land we are on even existed.

Have heard it before of course, but this time it kinda stuck with me. This Pope is a Socialist and Communist at the same time. Not a fan. He wants redistribution of wealth? How about starting with some of that stolen art?
With that said I find going to mass comforting and have met many great Clergy members. Also unfortunately there was a terrible incident in the 80s in my Parish is New Jersey. And in retrospect, we shoulda saw it coming.

I have never been abused in any way and feel terrible for anyone that has been. The nuns are supposed to be "married to God."
I'm sort of embarrassed to say that sounds sort of cultist to me.