Solar panels aren't all that "Green"!

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Old 10-08-2021, 09:34 AM
Number 10 GI Number 10 GI is offline
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Originally Posted by jammaiora View Post
I was amused by your "story" but not quite sure of its' purpose. One thing I concluded was that Tennessee made a bad business decision, which doesn't surprise me. Secondly, if you think your "story" justifies staying with fossil fuels, it doesn't. Thirdly, in regard to recycling solar panels, it will be developed gradually over time. "Nice" try but no "cigar"!
There was no bad decision made by Tennessee, Hemlock Semiconductor made the mistake. Hemlock lost their incentives when they failed to live up to their contract with the state.
I'm not trying to justifying the continued use of fossil fuels, I want to know the net gain if any from solar panels. How much energy will a solar panel generate vs the amount of energy required to produce the panels. And how much energy will be required to recycle the worn out panels. Why don't we hear about that? It would be a great selling point to show there actually is a net gain. Is there a real gain?
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Old 10-08-2021, 09:41 AM
GrumpyOldMan GrumpyOldMan is offline
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There was no bad decision made by Tennessee, Hemlock Semiconductor made the mistake. Hemlock lost their incentives when they failed to live up to their contract with the state.
I'm not trying to justifying the continued use of fossil fuels, I want to know the net gain if any from solar panels. How much energy will a solar panel generate vs the amount of energy required to produce the panels. And how much energy will be required to recycle the worn out panels. Why don't we hear about that? It would be a great selling point to show there actually is a net gain. Is there a real gain?
WE do hear about it, apparently you don't. I do not know why you don't, but here is your answer:

For those that don't like to read articles, I included a summary chart shopping the FULL LIFECYCLE emissions of various energy sources, please note that Solar lifecycle emissions is about 1/2 to 1/10 that of fossil fuel.


https://www.world-nuclear.org/upload..._lifecycle.pdf

Last edited by GrumpyOldMan; 10-13-2021 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 10-08-2021, 10:03 AM
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WE do hear about it, apparently you don't. I do not know why you don't, but here is your answer:

For those that don't like to read articles, I included a summary chart shopping the FULL LIFECYCLE emissions of various energy sources, please note that Solar lifecycle emissions is about 1/2 to 1/10 that of fossil fuel.


https://www.world-nuclear.org/upload..._lifecycle.pdf
I don't see correlation between green house gasses and energy required to produce solar panels. How much energy do they generate over the amount of energy expended to create them. If I make a product that costs me $10 to build and I can only sell it for $10 there is no gain.
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Old 10-08-2021, 10:17 AM
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I got it, so, don't do anything until you can do everything.
No, it's more of a "look before you leap" analogy...
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Old 10-08-2021, 10:23 AM
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I don't see correlation between green house gasses and energy required to produce solar panels. How much energy do they generate over the amount of energy expended to create them. If I make a product that costs me $10 to build and I can only sell it for $10 there is no gain.
The cost of creation and removal are included in the total life cycle costs/emmisions.
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Old 10-08-2021, 10:25 AM
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No, it's more of a "look before you leap" analogy...
We have been looking for decades.

Seriously, and it has been an uphill push the entire time. If I were paranoid, I would say the fossil fuel industry has a vested interest in disparaging alternate energy sources. Sort of like cigarette commercials saying smoking their brand is good for your cough.
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Old 10-08-2021, 12:44 PM
Sherry8bal Sherry8bal is offline
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Apparently it makes you feel good to ignore all the fossil fuels and pollution generated by it that is required to produce the silicon to make the solar panes.
Most of the electric power in Europe is generated by nuclear energy so if that is the dust we are behind, I agree, we haven't built a nuclear powered electric generation plant in years.
My brother-in-law is German and pointed out to me that Germans bought big time into the solar panel hype and windmill electric generation. Neither one has lived up to the grandiose promises of the hucksters selling the idea.
EXACTLY. The only reason they keep promoting it is because people like Pelosi's hubby has invested millions in charging stations and other things that involve solar and wind. I'm sure there are many other politicians who are doing the same thing. It's all corrupt.
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Old 10-09-2021, 06:13 AM
tsmall22204 tsmall22204 is offline
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So what does your false dissertation of bad business decisions of manufacturers have to do with a home owner installing solar panels and saving money and electricity. You have the glass is half empty approach. One more point... not all power plants use coal.
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Old 10-09-2021, 09:01 AM
sasman29 sasman29 is offline
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Number 10 GI
What you are saying does make sense. I am wondering if you found any studies with data to confirm that theory? Another theory in the same vein is the recycling frenzy. It may cost more energy to recycle then we are saving.
I am, however, a proponent of solar energy production as we certainly will be able to improve and create a more efficient process of building and utilizing solar panels.
  #40  
Old 10-09-2021, 03:22 PM
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The solar panel isn't as "Green" as it's proponents want you to believe. I used to work as an Industrial Research Analyst in the Industrial Research Division for the Tennessee Department of Economic and Community Development. The purpose of the Department was to attract new industry to the state and to help existing businesses to expand their operations.

Hemlock Semiconductor selected Clarksville, TN as their site for a silicon plant to produce silicon for solar panels. My division was given a list of raw materials needed in the manufacturing process and we were to locate sources for the materials.

Silica sand with a very high purity level is the main ingredient. That kind of sand is hard to find, there are huge deposits of sand in nearly every state but silica sand of that purity level is scarce. To get the sand it has to be extracted from the ground using DIESEL fueled earth moving equipment. Because of the scarcity of high purity silica most of the sources were many miles from the proposed silicon plant. That sand had to be transported to the plant using DIESEL powered trucks.

The next lower raw material was charcoal made from HARDWOOD, not sawmill leavings. Charcoal is made by burning the hardwood down to briquettes. This creates all kinds of smoke pollution and again the sources weren't near to the plant and the charcoal had to be brought in with again, DIESEL powered trucks.

The next raw material was industrial gasses. Luckily the gas generation plant was required to be built on site however the gas plant required a lot of electrical power, which is generated by COAL!
Now once the silicon manufacturing plant has all the necessary ingredients to make silicon all is good except that the process uses copious amounts of electricity all of which is generated by COAL fired plants.

Now it takes a plant to manufacture the solar panel so the processed silicon has to be transported again by a DIESEL powered truck to the plant making the panels which probably uses COAL fired electric generation plants for power. All of these processes produce industrial pollution. Then you have the problem of recycling, if possible, the worn out solar panels.

Now for the irony. Hemlock Semiconductor spent $1.2 Billion, yes Billion, to construct the plant. Due to an over supply of silicon from Asia, Hemlock decided that it wasn't fiscally sound to produce silicon because of the cheap silicon from overseas. They closed the plant and it never manufactured 1 ounce of silicon. The plant was abandoned and everything was sold for scrap.
Great story, very entertaining, and VERY well written. I tend to feel that nuclear electric power plants might be the best way to produce energy. I have not studied well enough the risk / reward for nuclear. So, I don't have a definitive opinion on that yet. I like the idea of TRYING solar panel electric generation as a learning experience and on a trial basis. perhaps in the future, there will be improvements on the materials and the panels for INCREASED efficiency BOTH in use and during manufacture. As far as using the sun's energy - it IS OBVIOUS that there is potential there - just hold your hand on a dark car that has been in the sun. You can cook eggs lately! Humans continue to experiment and WILL get better at utilizing solar energy. Simply using solar energy to help a house with hot water would be beneficial to our Planet Earth!
  #41  
Old 10-09-2021, 03:28 PM
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Apparently it makes you feel good to ignore all the fossil fuels and pollution generated by it that is required to produce the silicon to make the solar panes.
Most of the electric power in Europe is generated by nuclear energy so if that is the dust we are behind, I agree, we haven't built a nuclear powered electric generation plant in years.
My brother-in-law is German and pointed out to me that Germans bought big time into the solar panel hype and windmill electric generation. Neither one has lived up to the grandiose promises of the hucksters selling the idea.
Agree, but I see the current time with solar energy having similarities with the nation's transition from horse-drawn buggies to the Ford Model T. Look back at the many incarnations of improvements to internal combustion vehicles. We are in the Model T era of using solar energy.
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Old 10-09-2021, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan View Post
We have been looking for decades.

Seriously, and it has been an uphill push the entire time. If I were paranoid, I would say the fossil fuel industry has a vested interest in disparaging alternate energy sources. Sort of like cigarette commercials saying smoking their brand is good for your cough.
Sure, but you completely ignore those getting paid to say the "climate sky is falling"...
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Old 10-09-2021, 03:44 PM
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So what does your false dissertation of bad business decisions of manufacturers have to do with a home owner installing solar panels and saving money and electricity. You have the glass is half empty approach. One more point... not all power plants use coal.
True, but no one wants anyone to build nuclear plants, either...
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Old 10-09-2021, 03:48 PM
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Sure, but you completely ignore those getting paid to say the "climate sky is falling"...
I am sorry, I missed where the conversation switched to climate change denial?
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Old 10-09-2021, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by EastCoastDawg View Post
No sensible person claims that any renewable energy is pollution-free - anything that has to be constructed is bound to cause SOME pollution, but the prize is to make the impact as small as possible.

It is only the naysayers who set up "Pollution-Free" as a claim so that they can knock it down in their arguments. Without that claim, their arguments would be (and are) meaningless.
Burning or using WOOD from renewable forests has to be close to pollution-free because trees are absorbing CO2 and giving off oxygen. Forests are being burned and plowed under because the people of Earth are producing too many offspring! Also, devouring many other non-renewable resources. Excess people and heat from cities and even crime from cities where everyone is anonymous - IS ALL tied together in this and almost ALL ISSUES AND DISCUSSIONS. It IS the basis for ALL of the earth's problems and solutions. Soon after our lives are over, massive hordes of CLIMATE migrators will come up from South America and also into Europe from the equator. This will NOT be pretty! And OUR grandkid's children will HAVE to head NORTH to Canada!
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