Bucco, if I could have your ear to give you a small bug, "everybody knows" is a way of saying "I have no idea if this is true"...

I think the "everyone knows" was put in by Kitty as an example of something her mother used to say which she used to illustrate research is a great tool.

I do not think Janmcn used "everyone knows" in her posts.

You are absolutely correct, and I apologize to JANMCN and anyone else for the misquote....she said...

"Statistics prove that suicides are much more numerous in states that have a large number of gun owners and guns. This is true in The Villages, as there was a rash of self-inflicted gun shot wounds about a year ago. Would these poor souls have hung themselves if guns were not available? Who knows? "

I have even greater problems with "statistics prove" the way it was used because I read the report and it is not quite that conclusive. This report was used in a political forum on a discussion of gun control is why I knew a bit about it.......

my mother told me to back off when I should so I am backing off...as someone who relies on and believes in truth and context, I am sorry for the misquote. Will try hard not to have it happen again.

From that Harvard report....

"We performed reviews of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on suicide rates. The preponderance of current evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for youth suicide in the United States. The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling. Most of the disaggregate findings of particular studies (e.g. handguns are more of a risk factor than long guns, guns stored unlocked pose a greater risk than guns stored locked) are suggestive but not yet well established."

Harvard School of Public Health » Harvard Injury Control Research Center » Suicide

It is a very interesting report but one which admits the lack of correlating facts to reach firm conclusions.

About suicides:
 

Whether people argue for or against guns, the assumption is made that suicide is always bad. No one ever argues (like they do in the food debate) for freedom of choice and for taking personal responsibility. Also, no one says, "we are all going to die eventually of something, so why worry about it?" It's strange how arguments change from one subject to another.

The Newtown shooter took his own life; that was an "acceptable" suicide. And there may be many other suicides that fall into the category of acceptable or understandable for one reason or another.

Well... perhaps. It's also possible that people with suicidal intent, but without access to guns, just jump out of windows, take a load of pills, or crash their cars into oncoming traffic to get the job done.
Without a note it might be more difficult to determine with certainty that it was a suicide. How many suicides are declared "accidents" to spare the family from additional grief (and any shame/embarrassment they might feel)?

As for something having "no juice" because there are no links or reports cited... etc. etc. How about this "fact?" "Loads of sleazy people walking around in the Villages!! Lots of them have diseases!" I can cite "Leisureville" (an actual book!) so it must be true. ;D

At the inception of this thread I thought I would not participate. As a retired Secret Service Agent my response to all inquiries about whether or not I was carrying a gun has been, "I quit carrying a gun when I learned to kill with my bare hands." :D

In fact to this day I will not give a straight answer to that question to anyone other than a law enforcement officer. Paranoid? Forty years in law enforcement can make you "cautious" of even casual inquiries of this kind. :police:

I decided to jump in on the thread when I saw that the discussion had turned to suicide and in particular the claim that the suicide rate is higher where gun availability is higher.

First, just a word about the basis for my remarks. After my Secret Service career I had a second career as a deputy sheriff here in Florida. I was a detective in Organized Crime, a Tactical Flight Officer in the Aviation Unit and on a specialty team as a Hostage Negotiator.

Hostage Negotiators are involved in a number of "non-hostage" crisis situations, notably calls regarding suicidal individuals. My negotiations have involved talking potential jumpers down off of bridges and talking people armed with rifles or pistols into relinquishing their firearms and giving up. Virtually every call I responded to, including the jumper, involved someone who was armed. I never had a person with whom I negotiated go through with the suicide.

In order to qualify for this specialty required a great deal of classroom training, role playing training and an apprenticeship prior to becoming the lead negotiator.

What I am about to say comes from that training. I respectfully suggest that many of the intellectual studies that utilize statistics to demonstrate the correlation between a high incidence of suicide with the readily availability of firearms can be explained easily.

The fact is that firearms are one of the easiest and most efficient methods of suicide. So, yes, where there are more guns their use in suicides may be more prevalent. Where I think the intellectuals go wrong is in their implicit assumption that if guns were not available then the individuals would not commit suicide by some other means. I have seen suicides where the person hanged himself, ran a garden hose from his car tailpipe into his car, ran out into highway traffic to be struck by a car, drove into a bridge abutment at high speed and even menaced the police with a gun to compel them to shoot him; what is called "suicide by cop."

The methods that I have seen as most ineffective have been medication overdoses and cutting of wrists.

There are many other conclusions that are drawn from statistics that I don't believe are justified by the statistics, but are reflective of the anti-gun bias of the person drawing the conclusions. But, I've already gone long here, so I'll close.

-------------------------------------------

Never pick a fight with an old man. He knows he can't whip you so he will have to shoot you.

P.S. There are several retired Secret Service agents in our area.

Good post.

The initial statement on this, I think, was heard on a political show because the Harvard Report was immediately picked up and used for spin,BUT AS IS NORMAL, it is used totally out of context and driven solely by headlines that can be spoon fed to their loyal followers.

There, in the report, was also a reference to the fact that attempts at suicide using guns are usually successful,while those attempts using other means not so much which skewed the stats.

They also are very clear that there needs to be much more analysis,but of ores those political animals never mention that.

I do not think it is wrong to say where pistols are most available, they will be the method of choice for suicide. Sounds pretty logical. Also, sounds logical that if a person is intent on killing themself, a person will do so with whatever mean is available.

The cutting of a wrist or taking several pills is usually a suicide gesture and is a cry for help. A gun to the head or jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is a finality.

To quote stats is ridiculous. It is an acknowledged but worthless fact. Makes no difference if a person is serious, they will do it.

Carl, you've been around the block. Most everybody I see posting on totv hasn't been around a block.

where i work classes to carry are offered every quarter...

where do you work?

you have take a class and pass before you can apply for permit to carry...classes are offered every three months and have a waiting list

..............

Veterans can present their DD 214, pay the fees, and get their CCP. Does not matter when you got out of the military. No classes, no target shooting, just pay the fee.