B1 - I wholly agree with you here (unusual as that may be). You are respecting both the rights of the church to have a monopoly on a sacrament, namely marriage; and the right of the individual to enjoy the equal privileges under another name, civil unions. I can only hope that this type of sanity will eventually occur to our politicians.

Bucco: So, infertile couples should not be allowed to marry? After all, it's all about procreation, by your stated standard.

Rubicon: So my uncle who married 4 women a total of 6 times - that's ok? By an aunt of mine who was with her partner for 17 years, raised a kid together, maintained a home together - that's NOT ok?

All of a sudden you "small government" conservatives are all over having the government refuse the privileges that everyone else gets.

Look, I get the "yuck" factor when it comes to certain aspects of sexual behavior. But why, all of a sudden does the "It's For The Children" mantra come out when you specifically HATE it when that term is applied to something else - like a social program?

So - all you conservatives who think it's about the children.. For the first time in over a decade, I'm truly happy. I remarried in 2010. I had a vasectomy after my 2nd daughter was born so I haven't been able to reproduce since 1992. Should marriage be out of the question for me?

For those conservatives I would say - get the hell out of my bedroom. And, by the way, IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE SEX. It's about love, committment, and all those things that go along with it. It's about leaving whatever I have left to whom *I* want to leave it to. It's the fact that I have sympathy for gay families who have had their estates raped by the very so-called family members who rejected them - but, oh, they loved their money after they were dead.

It's about being refused admission to a hospital to see your loved one because it's "family members only".

Get your heads out of the porn movies and realize it's MORE than that.

Nobody questions that the *best* environment (on average) is a mother and a father. But having two fathers or two mothers beats the hell out of being an orphan or in foster care.

Well said.

Some of these chrurches support gay marriage.
 

List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are a few churches in this list that probably would marry gays/lesbians.

Wikipedia articles often need to be checked for veracity though. Might want to do a search on the church in question's official position on same sex marriage.

With all due respect I find your post extremely offensive on so many levels.

I do not believe in homosexual behaviour. If that makes me old fashioned, so be it. Your reference to porn and other things that you say speak to you, although you aim it at everyone else.

10 YEARS ago it was against the law for having such homosexual behavior and now we want to sanction marriage.

NOW, having been honest on that, I do not believe that any group should be in any way treated differently ! I am a fair and honest human being. My religion and my moral code after all these years lead me to this, and despite a frenzied attack by you, that is how I feel. And my head is not in porn movies as you say. Now either you can accept that is my feelings or not......I certainly would never make such an attack on anyone who disagreed with me and again...you attack speaks to you !

I never asked this subject to be politicized......it has been made this way for a reason I do not understand and of course in your mind that makes me some kind of name that you will find. The government does not want to be in anyones bedroom so allow that to happen.

If you object to my moral code, so be it...but it gives you no more rights than I. I will not apologize to you for my moral code.

I try to think about the Golden Rule when it comes to gay/lesbian marriage. That's treat others how you yourself would like to be treated.

On a personal note, I find watching gays having sex very offensive. This shows up in various cable shows like Weeds, The Borgias, Spartacus etc. It is not porn per se, just part of the stories told by writers in these cable shows.

:agree: in my world, the gay/lesbian couples i know share a deeper and longer commitment to each other than some of my married friends do! separate but equal may not be the answer in all cases, BUT in this case it is the best answer to my way of thinking!

that as
 

Obviously I am odd man out here. I may be too forward but I have made my statment.

Just to clarify, I DO in fact have homosexual friends...I have had a number of homosexual employees. They were never treated any differently than anybody else I know or knew. I do not think anyone, for whatever reason, should not have the same civil rights that I have.

I just do not believe in the marriage aspect and if you folks feel I am a bad person for believing it, so be it. I suspect I am not alone in my feelings.

I do object strongly to be verbally assaulted for my feelings on an issue that is not and should not be a political issue.

I would think that I will be the subject of lots of ridicule now.....and that is fine.

Just remember....being opposed to homosexual marriages or acts is NOT....NOT a symptom of hate of anyone. If you have a need, and it would be some kind of need, to make it so, then it is your problem. I certainly do not jump to those kind of assumptions about anyone, and make no general assumptions about anyone.

Telling me to "get the hell out of my bedroom" is not necessary. I never went there, YOU brought it out to me.

To even bring up the subject of porn is so offensive I cant even speak to it.

Much of what was layed on me and others have nothing at all to do with the issue at hand....you never asked if I thought two men or two women raising a child would be better than being an orphan so do not assume that you know the answer. This kind of rhetoric is, to me, simply unacceptable.

I will not criticize you for your morals....I would appreciate not making any assumptions about me or my life based on your morals and maybe then there can be some resolution on things.

If folks are somehow offended by my morals, I will say tough.....and I say it that way because I do agree with you folks on one thing......my morals and my life are none of your business. If you need to read things in to statements that are not there, that is totally and 100% YOUR problem. I have never nor would I ever want anyone to lose civil rights because of a sexual preference. I do not see much of that happening. If hospitals need to change their rules on visiting, then so be it. If a will has to be structured differently then so be it. We already have laws on the books to protect folks.....not sure why the marriage issue even exists.

This is much more than I would usually say on something so personal...I do not bring my personal life in here but if forced I have no problem with being up front and honest.

If you see my moral code AND my feeling of protecting everyone's rights to be free, but excepting changing marriage as something vile and wrong, then so be it.

Bucco, North Carolina has now become the 30th state to ban gay "marriage", so I don't think you are actually the "odd man out" with the majority of the nation agreeing with you.

Looks like I touched a nerve.

I'll try to address this more specifically.

Bucco: You find my post offensive? (I'll admit it was more aggressive than I usually do but I have family members that this applies to and that can get me a little more heated than normal) I find it offensive that people make assumptions on a 'lifestyle' based on what they see in a Gay Pride parade. I find it offensive that in asking for some civil rights that others take for granted (especially inheritance and visitation), people are told "no" and that "it's an unnatural act". Yeah - love. How unnatural.

Nobody is asking you to marry within your gender, nor force your church to perform the ceremony.

You say you treat all groups equally, and that you're a fair and honest human being. I'll accept that on face value. You also say you don't believe in homosexual behavior. You complained at my 'get your head out of the porn movie' comment. So if your head isn't thinking of that, can you tell me what homosexual behavior it is that you object to? Holding hands? Making a commitment? Kissing? I'm not being facetious here. I want to take you at your word.

So, in all honesty, what behavior is it that you object to? What behavior is it that you seem to find so offensive to your *personal* moral code that you feel the need to deny someone a path to the same kinds of inheritance and visitation rights that you enjoy without thinking.

Ruch Limbaugh's multiple marriages are ok?
Brittany Spear's 48-hour not-a-marriage weekend is ok?
DINKs (Double-Income No Kids) are ok?
My aforementioned uncle - he's ok?
My remarriage - that's ok?

But my aunt and her partner. That's NOT ok?

I've yet to see someone give me one good reason.

God's Law? Well, we have civil marriages for that. Any JP will do them.
Marriage is for children? I just addressed that.
What marriage has always been? Well, not terribly long ago (and still in some places today) marriage is a business proposition with women treated like objects.

The majority does not agree. Polls now suggest 50% of Americans would support gay marriage.

In another generation or two we won't even be having this discussion, just like we're no longer discussing inter-racial marriage.

1. YES, I found your post offensive. I do not know what assumptions you are speaking of. I have never on this forum seen anyone post about a gay parade or any of things you mention. If, in your circle of friends that happens, then you should address it with them and not to people that you dont even know. You ask me a direct question on what I find objectionable and will give you a direct answer. My morals, my religion, my upbringing all reflect it as unnatural. Folks of your ilk always find the need to insert love, etc as if my objection ruled that emotion out. It does not...I have a number of men friends whom I love. If you are stating that homosexuals do not engage in sex acts, or that marriage between homosexuals does not include making love, then I am hearing that for the first time.

I realize you do not like the Catholic church, nor and this is from your posts any organized religion, that does not mean that others cannot enjoy and embrace religion. I will stay out of your bedroom..YOU stay out of my religion.


2. Your mention of behavior that is not acceptable has me a bit perplexed. What does Limbaugh, Spears or anyone have to do with this subject ??

I find abuse of children reprehensible and find it as serious the law siding with Mothers always (for the most part) in making rulings where child abuse is involved. I find drug abuse of all kinds to be terrible, but we are now trying to even legalize part of that.

None of these things have anything to do with making a homosexual union LEGAL and to be in the same light as my marriage to my wife. Does it mean they love each other less...NO....does it mean they should be punished in some way....NO...does it mean that the law should be used against them...NO

Thus far all I have heard you say that the problem is.....getting into a hospital room to visit and willls. Both do not need a marriage to have resolution.

Now, again...at no time has anyone on here or anywhere I have heard of say that the gay community should be punished or denied any rights !!!

3, I do not care how marriage is thought of in other places..not one bit. I know my marriage was not a business proposition as you mention.


Yes, I found and find your posts to be very very offensive. You are discussing issues not related to anything and if you are getting heated because of personal issues, then you should address those issues with those involved. I, as well as you, have issues in my life as does everyone here. MY issues are MINE...I dont share them because that is none of anyones business and I consider that to be really unfair, because everyone here and on earth has personal issues.

You keep forcing the issue of your aunt and others on people. Why can I not have my opinions without you and others making such strong assumptions about us.

Until you brought it up, I have never mentioned this. I am against same sex marriage and that fact does not make me any less loving, any less fair, any less for rights for everyone nor does it detract from my marriage as you allude to.

You keep saying to stay out of your bedroom....I respond again...stop bringing your bedroom into my life !!!

My younger brother had a Jamaican wife. They often would get hostile stares as well as words from people in the Miami as well as the Tampa Bay area because of their mixed marriage.

This was fairly recently that they encountered these prejudices.

It is great though that we have a President who is a product of a mixed marriage. Cannot see us having a gay President in my lifetime anyway.

Bucco: I asked you, in all sincerity, what it was that you found objectionable.

Seriously - do you object to two men or two women being in love? And *nowhere* did I say they did not engage in sex, I said *it's not ALL about the sex*.

The reason I got heated? Because YOUR morals are interfering in MY family's PRIVATE life.

Allowing gay marriage doesn't affect you, your marriage, your home or anything else inside your personal rights.

Banning it means something completely different to members of my family.

What if you had fallen in love with a black woman in the south in the 1940s? Would you fall back on what so many were taught? (I can't say YOU were taught that but I think you understand what I'm trying to say)

And, yes, I mention inheritance and visitation because those are the top two things when it comes to some of the injustices I've heard of. But there was a government study back in the 1990s examining this issue and they found OVER SIXTEEN HUNDRED benefits to 'marriage'. I'll grant you, many of them were pretty damn obscure but there's a LOT more than one would think.

FTR - I didn't mention the Catholic Church anywhere here. My problems with how they handled pedophiles has NOTHING to do with this topic.

And yes, you yourself are denying gays the right of self-determination. The right to marry who they want. For you, it was easy - it was within the societal 'norm'. For me, my first marriage would have started a war (Irish Catholic marrying an Irish Protestant) elsewhere (yes, I thought I was Irish back then - didn't know I was adopted).

Like it or not, marriage IS, in some aspects, a business proposition. Tax laws, joint ownership and everything in that area is covered by it. No, it shouldn't be the PRIMARY aspect - but for my uncle that I didn't particularly care for, it was. He wanted the tax write-off.

You absolutely CAN have your opinions and, believe it or not, I respect you for being open about them. Some people don't have the guts to go against 'political correctness' for fear of offending someone (some might say that's how we got our current President).

I'm not asking someone to change their opinion of something. No matter what happens, for example, I'm never going to like the color 'avocado'. But if someone else wants to paint their kitchen that color, it's none of my business.

Likewise, I'm asking people to keep their opinions out of private lives.

I'll go a little further with some honesty. I used to believe the same as you, Bucco. The thought of two men getting married was positively LUDICROUS to me when I was younger. But I had someone come into my life, a good friend, who put some stretch marks on my horizons. Between that person and many others I've met over the course of my life, I changed my mind.