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Guest 02-14-2012 06:41 AM
Richie:

How did I conclude that? Well the quote:

Quote:
as surveys of patients and testimonies of clinicians close to situations of the dying show - is almost always the last expression of the patient's hearfelt request for greater attention and human closeness as well as suitable treatment
...specifically says a request for greater attention and closesness as well as treatment. A DNR is specifically to REFUSE treatment - to say "enough is enough"!

I pick out the Catholic Church because they're the ones arguing against the contraception coverage clause. We all know that Muslims do far worse in other countries (as my other quote referenced).

But just because someone else is worse doesn't mean ignoring what's still wrong. My adoptive mother stole money from me and, when I complained, her "defense" was that my friend's mother was worse. It's debating fallacy called 'deflection', if memory serves.

My "what ifs" were cut short as this one would be.. But I'll phrase them differently.

Just how many civil rights or laws should be "exempted" when a religious-affiliated group is running a hospital or non-religious school?

Should they be hypothetically allowed to ban gays? ...minorities? ...women? (There's a classic case - women cannot become priests, and that's ok with the Government under "nor prohibit the free exercise thereof", but you can't discriminate against them beaing teachers or nurses in hospitals)

The Catholic Church believes those to have had abortions to have committed murder. Should they be allowed to hypothetically refuse treatment to someone who's had an abortion - or the husband of a woman who has (as perhaps he was an accomplice).

My point in all of this is "where do you draw the line?" - and that's usually the most difficult question.

Guest 02-14-2012 06:55 AM
The Muslims make their own laws. Lets not go down that road in America. Separation of church and state 100%

Guest 02-14-2012 08:34 AM
Quote:
Posted by Guest (Post 453036)
Richie:

How did I conclude that? Well the quote:



...specifically says a request for greater attention and closesness as well as treatment. A DNR is specifically to REFUSE treatment - to say "enough is enough"!

I pick out the Catholic Church because they're the ones arguing against the contraception coverage clause. We all know that Muslims do far worse in other countries (as my other quote referenced).

But just because someone else is worse doesn't mean ignoring what's still wrong. My adoptive mother stole money from me and, when I complained, her "defense" was that my friend's mother was worse. It's debating fallacy called 'deflection', if memory serves.

My "what ifs" were cut short as this one would be.. But I'll phrase them differently.

Just how many civil rights or laws should be "exempted" when a religious-affiliated group is running a hospital or non-religious school?

Should they be hypothetically allowed to ban gays? ...minorities? ...women? (There's a classic case - women cannot become priests, and that's ok with the Government under "nor prohibit the free exercise thereof", but you can't discriminate against them beaing teachers or nurses in hospitals)

The Catholic Church believes those to have had abortions to have committed murder. Should they be allowed to hypothetically refuse treatment to someone who's had an abortion - or the husband of a woman who has (as perhaps he was an accomplice).

My point in all of this is "where do you draw the line?" - and that's usually the most difficult question.
I'm thinking you've got too many "what if's" and that you're losing whatever point it is you're trying to make.

I really don't think you're making your case here and all of it is flawed.

No hospital is going to turn away a patient who is suffering or in a life threatening situation. I don't know where you get that idea.

The upshot of all this is that it does appear to me that you're flailing about in all of your musings in an attempt to convince people that the church's teachings and beliefs have to be subordinate to laws that are indeed adverse to those beliefs.

You cannot make that case.

Guest 02-14-2012 12:34 PM
Perhaps I can sum it up this way.

How the Church acts in *private* (the free exercise of their religion) is one thing.

How they act in *public* (operating schools, hospitals, etc), is subject to *public* laws.

There are some grey areas in there, I'll be the first one to admit that (hence the reason I was doing the "what ifs" to see where to draw the line)

To take a simple example..

A Church doesn't have to marry homosexuals if it's against their teaching.

A Church-sponsored hospital CANNOT deny service to a homosexual (not saying they WOULD, I'm just saying they CAN'T)

Guest 02-14-2012 02:04 PM
It must be hard being Catholic. Knowing what the church hierarchy wants in terms of human behavior and also knowing that's it's near impossible to meet the expectations; not that the vast majority even want to try. It's an archaic, mostly irrelevent religion.
It's much easier being agnostic. :icon_wink:

Guest 02-14-2012 02:29 PM
Quote:
Posted by Guest (Post 453201)
Perhaps I can sum it up this way.

How the Church acts in *private* (the free exercise of their religion) is one thing.

How they act in *public* (operating schools, hospitals, etc), is subject to *public* laws.

There are some grey areas in there, I'll be the first one to admit that (hence the reason I was doing the "what ifs" to see where to draw the line)

To take a simple example..

A Church doesn't have to marry homosexuals if it's against their teaching.

A Church-sponsored hospital CANNOT deny service to a homosexual (not saying they WOULD, I'm just saying they CAN'T)
The Church does not operate public schools. So what you say does not apply. You have to choose to go to parochial school. You certainly don't have to.

The same goes with hospitals. No emergency patient is going to be turned away from a Catholic hospital, and they will fight for that person's life, there's no doubt about it. Elective procedures? That's where you don't have to go to that hospital. There are others to perform procedures that a Catholic Hospital might not administer.

So this was all an exercise with no real cause for alarm on your part, it seems. I'm still not sure what the point of all of this was.

Guest 02-14-2012 02:34 PM
Quote:
Posted by Guest (Post 453239)
The Church does not operate public schools. So what you say does not apply. You have to choose to go to parochial school. You certainly don't have to.

The same goes with hospitals. No emergency patient is going to be turned away from a Catholic hospital, and they will fight for that person's life, there's no doubt about it. Elective procedures? That's where you don't have to go to that hospital. There are others to perform procedures that a Catholic Hospital might not administer.

So this was all an exercise with no real cause for alarm on your part, it seems. I'm still not sure what the point of all of this was.
Richie, sweaty, please stop. You are out of your league trying so debate with Long.

Guest 02-14-2012 02:36 PM
Quote:
Posted by Guest (Post 453244)
Richie, sweaty, please stop. You are out of your league trying so debate with Long.
You are a foolish boy who doesn't know what he's talking about, so why don't you just shut the heck up. It's embarrassing.

Guest 02-14-2012 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=The Villager II;453244]Richie, sweaty, please stop. You are out of your league trying so debate with Long.[/QUOT.E]


You have no clue as to what your are talking about...NONE.

DJPLONG, an intelligent guy, goes out of his way almost daily to find some fault with the Catholic church, and even he will admit he has a difficult time being neutral discussing the Church, whether he is right or wrong, he has a slant.

What began the discussion is pretty straight forward....the President and administration erred very seriously with the health care bill (albeit on purpose) and he is simply trying to fix it politically. READ the health care bill...it will scare the @#$%% out of you if you fear government involvement.

RICHIELION does not need me to speak up, but will tell you, he is not in any danger here at all.

Guest 02-14-2012 02:52 PM
Much appreciated Bucco.

Guest 02-14-2012 03:41 PM
[quote=Bucco;453250]
Quote:
Posted by Guest (Post 453244)
Richie, sweaty, please stop. You are out of your league trying so debate with Long.[/QUOT.E]


You have no clue as to what your are talking about...NONE.

DJPLONG, an intelligent guy, goes out of his way almost daily to find some fault with the Catholic church, and even he will admit he has a difficult time being neutral discussing the Church, whether he is right or wrong, he has a slant.

What began the discussion is pretty straight forward....the President and administration erred very seriously with the health care bill (albeit on purpose) and he is simply trying to fix it politically. READ the health care bill...it will scare the @#$%% out of you if you fear government involvement.

RICHIELION does not need me to speak up, but will tell you, he is not in any danger here at all.
Trust me bucco, you don't have to go out of your way to find fault with the Catholic church. The catholic church is a pit of lies , deception, perversion.

Guest 02-14-2012 04:33 PM
All religions are cults. One man or women trying to control many weak men/woman by telling lies that God said to him/her to do this or that. Life your life according the the Bible and you will not need Jim or Pat or Orville to tell you what God said needs to be done by sending them money. Talk about a scam, religion is the biggest one going.

Guest 02-14-2012 05:29 PM
Quote:
Posted by Guest (Post 453281)

Trust me bucco, you don't have to go out of your way to find fault with the Catholic church. The catholic church is a pit of lies , deception, perversion.
One of the most hate filled posts yet. You must be proud.

Guest 02-14-2012 05:46 PM
Quote:
Posted by Guest (Post 453244)
Richie, sweaty, please stop. You are out of your league trying so debate with Long.

This is the funninest thing I have heard in a long, long time! :MOJE_whot:

Guest 02-14-2012 05:51 PM
Quote:
Posted by Guest (Post 453281)

Trust me bucco, you don't have to go out of your way to find fault with the Catholic church. The catholic church is a pit of lies , deception, perversion.
TVII~I thought you claim to be a Christian?...tsk,tsk,tsk:ohdear:


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