Finally, we have the Democrats and the Republicans getting together to introduce a bill to raise the nations conscienceness. Far out, man!

Seriously though, Republican Rep. Ron Paul and Democrat Rep. Barney Frank have introduced a bill to legalize marijuana and allow the states to legislate it's use. The bill would limit the feds involvement to smuggling, and eliminate laws against home grown weed to consume or sell.

I actually do not have a problem with this and think it's long overdue, but I don't believe this bill will advance very far. If it actually became law, I believe it would take the incentive out of the smuggling trade and put Mexican cartels out of business, in this activity anyway.

Better to legalize, decriminalize and regulate it use.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/lawmakers-i...225335489.html

The logic of legalizing marijuana is solid. It does not lead to 'hard' drugs, it is not as addictive as tobacco or booze and it provides help to many who need it. A more effective and safer way to calm people than pills.

So what's the problem? Legalizing pot and controlling its production and distribution threatens too many:

Politicians who risk losing the support by supporting unjustifiably strong laws and punishment to curry vote and contributions.
Police who will lose much of their arrest records.
Prison officials and guards who will see their population drop.
The Drug Enforcement Agency.
The criminals who control the marijuana production and distribution such as the Mexican Drug Cartels. They may be counted upon for large donations to politicians who sensationalize the issue.

The list goes on and on. Marijuana is the largest cash crop in many states. While I support Congressmen Paul and Frank and will write to my Congressman to support it, I see no chance that it will go anywhere.

There's money in War. Doesn't matter if the 'war' is on Nazis, communists, poverty, drugs or terror.

Something must be wrong with my computer screen!! I just read on it that RichieLion thinks that a bill co-sponsored by Barney Frank is long overdue and that he does not have a problem with it.

Richie, I figured all the time you had to be a closet liberal. So glad that you have now come out into the open.

However, you also have the practical side and the smarts to know the legalizing of marijuana on a national level will not go anywhere.

Please realize that marijuana is recognized by any responsible Addition Theryapist as a "Gateway Drug". Research supports that a high
percentage of other drug users started on this drug. I am always amazed
why anyone (outside of serious medical problems) would ever support making
this drug legal. Excluding significant medical problems why would anyone
want to escape the realities of life. The "Rehabs" are full of these individuals suffering from alcohol or drug additions so I guess this would just make them
more successful in raising revenue. We should not forget that alcohol is just another form of a drug. Maybe a visit to ann AA meeting, or a Narc meeting
would help these people see the harm of this thinking. I have not suffered from these additions but have known many who have and cost to society
is great. It is a pretty dumb excuse to make it legal in order to avoid work for
the police or earn taxes on the sale. I feel confident the saving that may happen from these will be passed on as an additional cost to society and the quality of life for many.

Originally Posted by PennBF

Please realize that marijuana is recognized by any responsible Addition Theryapist as a "Gateway Drug". Research supports that a high
percentage of other drug users started on this drug. I am always amazed
why anyone (outside of serious medical problems) would ever support making
this drug legal. Excluding significant medical problems why would anyone
want to escape the realities of life. The "Rehabs" are full of these individuals suffering from alcohol or drug additions so I guess this would just make them
more successful in raising revenue. We should not forget that alcohol is just another form of a drug. Maybe a visit to ann AA meeting, or a Narc meeting
would help these people see the harm of this thinking. I have not suffered from these additions but have known many who have and cost to society
is great. It is a pretty dumb excuse to make it legal in order to avoid work for
the police or earn taxes on the sale. I feel confident the saving that may happen from these will be passed on as an additional cost to society and the quality of life for many.

Gateway drug? That's just so much propaganda. Coffee and tea and Coca-Cola have caffeine in them, which is a stimulant and could be considered a drug by definition. Are those drinks gateway drugs to more effective stimulants?

Enjoying an adult beverage or enjoying a smoke is not escaping reality, but enhancing it for the majority of people. There are many beneficial aspects to marijuana. In chemo therapy patients it has been shown to reduce nausea and increase appetite, with the patients ability to dose as much as needed and not have to swallow a specific amount in a pill that they may vomit out before it's active ingredient has been absorbed.

Responsible adults can handle the use of marijuana and the legalization of it will eliminate the incalculable damage done by the drug gangs that run the industry. Beside's it's not like it's hard to get now. It would be better for everyone if the sale of it was regulated.

Originally Posted by Tbugs

Something must be wrong with my computer screen!! I just read on it that RichieLion thinks that a bill co-sponsored by Barney Frank is long overdue and that he does not have a problem with it.

Richie, I figured all the time you had to be a closet liberal. So glad that you have now come out into the open.

However, you also have the practical side and the smarts to know the legalizing of marijuana on a national level will not go anywhere.

He did a bang up job in engineering the destruction of our economy with his leadership of the Banking Committee, but he's not wrong about everything. I agree with his position on gay marriage. Are you surprised by that also?

I give credit where credit is deserved. You liberals should try it sometime.

Unfortunately most people do not have experience with addictions and feel
using drugs is just a little hobby that is fun. An experienced addiction theryapist has an entirely different view as they have to deal with the poor
person who has moved on from the gateway drug. I will repeat that where
there is solid medical need then all bets off and it should be available. But to think of it as a good recreational drug and a good form of excape is very unfortunate and naive. To compare this class of drug as like coffee is not even rationale. The most serious problem is to take it lightly with the youth and young adults. They are the victims and future Rehab residents.
It is pretty safe to say that a very sizable majority of coke, herion, etc.
users started with the gateway drug marijuana. Once it goes from marijuana to the next class of drugs it becomes a "family" disease. Life can be so great that it is sad that some must drug themselves to escape the joys of good
living.

Originally Posted by PennBF

Unfortunately most people do not have experience with addictions and feel
using drugs is just a little hobby that is fun. An experienced addiction theryapist has an entirely different view as they have to deal with the poor
person who has moved on from the gateway drug. I will repeat that where
there is solid medical need then all bets off and it should be available. But to think of it as a good recreational drug and a good form of excape is very unfortunate and naive. To compare this class of drug as like coffee is not even rationale. The most serious problem is to take it lightly with the youth and young adults. They are the victims and future Rehab residents.
It is pretty safe to say that a very sizable majority of coke, herion, etc.
users started with the gateway drug marijuana. Once it goes from marijuana to the next class of drugs it becomes a "family" disease. Life can be so great that it is sad that some must drug themselves to escape the joys of good
living.

Your post tells me you don't really have any real first hand knowledge of the recreational use of marijuana and maybe even of alcohol, and on this issue you just have your heartbreak over casualties. Are there addictive personalities? Sure there are. People can become emotionally addicted to many different things. We might have to start a big list of what to ban.

Do you think the kids you're concerned about don't have access to marijuana because it's illegal? Do you think drinkers had no access to alcohol during Prohibition?

If you think that people who enjoy an adult beverage or even a marijuana cigarette are "escaping life", you really aren't thinking this through and embracing reality.

But I know I won't change your mind and you must know I won't change mine. I smoked for many years off and on as desired, and now haven't for many years because I haven't desired. I enjoy adult beverages more now when I'm socializing. Gee, how did I do that; just stop smoking? It's because marijuana is not physically addictive, and like most people, I'm not predisposed to addiction.

Originally Posted by RichieLion

Your post tells me you don't really have any real first hand knowledge of the recreational use of marijuana and maybe even of alcohol, and on this issue you just have your heartbreak over casualties. Are there addictive personalities? Sure there are. People can become emotionally addicted to many different things. We might have to start a big list of what to ban.

Do you think the kids you're concerned about don't have access to marijuana because it's illegal? Do you think drinkers had no access to alcohol during Prohibition?

If you think that people who enjoy an adult beverage or even a marijuana cigarette are "escaping life", you really aren't thinking this through and embracing reality.

But I know I won't change your mind and you must know I won't change mine. I smoked for many years off and on as desired, and now haven't for many years because I haven't desired. I enjoy adult beverages more now when I'm socializing. Gee, how did I do that; just stop smoking? It's because marijuana is not physically addictive, and like most people, I'm not predisposed to addiction.

Remember those Dragnet episodes of Joe Friday busting someone?

You are fortunate and blessed to not have an addiction. I agree about social use. Reality is people will use.
My insights are not as a former user. Back a decade ago I worked with a therapist who worked with addicts mostly related to cocaine and heroin addiction. This is before Youtube. Lots of Powerpoint and video, animations about dopamine and endorphins, etc. The purpose of the job and seminars was to help health care professionals earn CEU's to maintain their job at a hospital or treatment center.
Regarding, marijuana: I was under the impression that it more powerful now than back in the 60s and 70s. The consensus seemed to that for some it can be a gateway drug. Some people have a tendency to become addicted. They have addictive personalities. It is in their DNA. Addiction is a disease, not a moral choice. Many of the interview of addicts that we did (protecting their identity) mentioned starting with a joint or alcohol. But then they are addicts. They all have a drug of choice.

Lack of legalization is not a deterrent. Social mores have changed. Some early could be just experimentation or an act of rebellion for young people.
Smoking is definitely more addictive and harder to quit. Many addicts that I met and were in rehab could quit the drugs more easily than the Marlboros.

Think of your underage drinking experiences. That didn't stop many of us. Alcohol is far more dangerous than pot. We all know someone who is an alcoholic or in recovery. I haven't read the bill but heard a soundbite. Decriminalization might free enforcement agencies and the court system to pursue other endeavors. Besides, the war on drugs hasn't worked. Remember those Say No to Drugs urinal liners? It is supply and demand. There is too much demand. Plus we could make it a sin tax like booze...
Legalize. Limit possession and monitor driving under the influence like a DUI.
For those who are addicted, repeated violations under the influence,provide treatment if they want to quit.

Not the same story for opiates.

Regarding a previous note as to not having any "real first hand knowledge of
of the recreational use of marijuana and maybe even of alcohol". How wrong this is..In fact in the immediate family we have 2 Theryapists who treat additions, who are highly educated in the field and see patients who have used "marijuana in the beginning as a recreational drug" and are now being treated for drug use and abuse. With regards to "alcohol" this is a pretty
common patient history. Did you know that if three patients came in and were
having withdrawal symptons from coke, herion and alcohol the patient most likely to die is the alcoholic as this effects every organ of the body and the one that has the most potential to have the patient die? It is wonderful one has smoked "weed" for all their life and are fine. The quesiton is what is their definition of "fine"? These are family diseases. I am getting off the "soap box" and will stop preaching on the subject since the only one that can stop is the user and nothing can help until/unless they recognize they have a problem. Unfortunately in a number of cases the family has suffered while
waiting for the person to see the problem.

Originally Posted by PennBF

Regarding a previous note as to not having any "real first hand knowledge of
of the recreational use of marijuana and maybe even of alcohol". How wrong this is..In fact in the immediate family we have 2 Theryapists who treat additions, who are highly educated in the field and see patients who have used "marijuana in the beginning as a recreational drug" and are now being treated for drug use and abuse. With regards to "alcohol" this is a pretty
common patient history. Did you know that if three patients came in and were
having withdrawal symptons from coke, herion and alcohol the patient most likely to die is the alcoholic as this effects every organ of the body and the one that has the most potential to have the patient die? It is wonderful one has smoked "weed" for all their life and are fine. The quesiton is what is their definition of "fine"? These are family diseases. I am getting off the "soap box" and will stop preaching on the subject since the only one that can stop is the user and nothing can help until/unless they recognize they have a problem. Unfortunately in a number of cases the family has suffered while
waiting for the person to see the problem.

By first hand experience I meant you and not your family or friends, and so all you really have is conjecture and a "I know better than anyone" moral compass.

You still haven't addressed any of the other social issues regarding this subject and are just hung up on the people who become addicted to substances that have nothing to do with this thread.

Do you know how many people become addicted to prescription drugs? Was marijuana the gateway to these addictions?

Richie and Penn, both realize I am sure, that there are types of people with addictive disorders. The addiction may be drugs, alcohol, pills, or other things. In the case of pain pills, it probably started with an accident for which pain pills were prescribed and the addictive disorder just keeps craving them after a while. Same way with marijuana or other drugs. Same thing goes for alcohol or cigarettes.

Not all people who use marijuana will be drug addicts just as not all who drink alcohol are alcoholics. You can say that it is a stepping stone but there are the stepping stones of beer, a sleeping pill, a pain pill for an injury, or a cigarette. Are you going to do away with all of those things? No, they are all legal and regulated.

Marijuana needed for many thousands of people on chemo for both nausea control and pain control of cancer.

There is the question of non-medical use of marijuana. If regulated, it would not be more harmful than alcohol or cigarettes.

Original posted by RichieLion
By first hand experience I meant you and not your family or friends, and so all you really have is conjecture and a "I know better than anyone" moral compass.

You still haven't addressed any of the other social issues regarding this subject and are just hung up on the people who become addicted to substances that have nothing to do with this thread.

Do you know how many people become addicted to prescription drugs? Was marijuana the gateway to these addictions?

To clarify, in addition to the immediate family who provide therapy to addicts
I have attended a famous foundation to become familiar with the disease and
thereby increas my ability to discuss it with the Professionals. The foundation was for a week and was very intense. I have also read many
books on the subject because of the scurge it has brought to society.
Regarding the question as to how many go from marijuana to other drugs?
It is a more complicated than just a percentage or number ! It is necessary
as what age the person started, the enviorment of the person, the availability of other drugs, etc. (Note: It is not unusual for the person selling
marijuana to also be selling cocaine, herion, etc. and since in a number of
cases there is more profit from these drugs it is the seller's attempt to move
the customer up in usages.) A general rule of thumb could be around 15-20%
but again that percentage is questionable since it does not break it down by
age, rural or urban, etc.
To see the ruins..drive through Woodstock on a Sunday morning and see the population in the park, visit a crisis center in the South Bronx of NYC.
Again, there is no way someone can convince anybody to quit. Only they
can make that decision and hopefully it happens before it destroys families,
create health problems, and so on. There has been a wealth of documentation that it causes a shrinkage of the brain stem, effects reproduction, etc.but since I am not terribly knowledable about this I will leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Tbugs

Richie and Penn, both realize I am sure, that there are types of people with addictive disorders. The addiction may be drugs, alcohol, pills, or other things. In the case of pain pills, it probably started with an accident for which pain pills were prescribed and the addictive disorder just keeps craving them after a while. Same way with marijuana or other drugs. Same thing goes for alcohol or cigarettes.

Not all people who use marijuana will be drug addicts just as not all who drink alcohol are alcoholics. You can say that it is a stepping stone but there are the stepping stones of beer, a sleeping pill, a pain pill for an injury, or a cigarette. Are you going to do away with all of those things? No, they are all legal and regulated.

Marijuana needed for many thousands of people on chemo for both nausea control and pain control of cancer.

There is the question of non-medical use of marijuana. If regulated, it would not be more harmful than alcohol or cigarettes.

Son of a gun! Here we are in total agreement on something. Loved those '60's and '70's. It's amazing how many successful people with great families and great lives I know, who I smoked a joint or three with way back when. I don't know how every one of them made it and didn't spiral down the road of addiction hell that is being preached to me in this thread.

Hey Bugs, maybe if Frank and Paul are ever successful we'll have a celebratory toke. Just maybe.