How folks feel about the following question.....

We hardly even cover on the MSM (main stream media) or question on this board or any others, or get upset about a US Drone attacking a village in Afghanastan and KILLING INNOCENT VILLAGERS...

BUT....

We seem to get all excited and threaten impeachment, etc because there was harsh punishment given to folks who HAVE killed....have said they WANT to kill and that includes those involved in 9/11 !!!!

Folks have posted on here how we, as Americans, are better people and should not reduce ourselves to "torture" folks....BUT WHERE ARE THEY condemning the drone killing of INNOCENT FOLKS ?

Just curious !!!!

Except for rhetorical purposes or to insinuate that we are bad people, who told you that they were innocents? I do not doubt that there were some civilians killed, who were not the intended target. That can be proven. Innocents, I am not so sure.

As for why a big deal is not made about it? There is in some circles. I feel however that many people view these casualties as collateral to the intended mission.

It is sad that enemy soldiers choose to camp among the civilian population who supports them, attempting to make an unclear target.

Yoda

Originally Posted by Yoda

Except for rhetorical purposes or to insinuate that we are bad people, who told you that they were innocents? I do not doubt that there were some civilians killed, who were not the intended target. That can be proven. Innocents, I am not so sure.

As for why a big deal is not made about it? There is in some circles. I feel however that many people view these casualties as collateral to the intended mission.

It is sad that enemy soldiers choose to camp among the civilian population who supports them, attempting to make an unclear target.

Yoda

So this killing is ok, but our "torture" is something that we talk about daily almost and act as if those who ordered it, legalized it, carried it out, are demons of some sort.

Viewing innocent citizens as "collateral to the intended mission.", makes me wonder about what we should call those we "tortured"..those who have already killed, planned killings, and threatened to kill.

This is not a defense of, excuse for any inhumane behavior...simply wondering how one who is so violently opposed to what is called "torture" can simply pass off the KILLINGS as "collateral" (and not talking specifically of you YODA...simply borrowed your term)

Originally Posted by Bucco

So this killing is ok, but our "torture" is something that we talk about daily almost and act as if those who ordered it, legalized it, carried it out, are demons of some sort.

Viewing innocent citizens as "collateral to the intended mission.", makes me wonder about what we should call those we "tortured"..those who have already killed, planned killings, and threatened to kill.

This is not a defense of, excuse for any inhumane behavior...simply wondering how one who is so violently opposed to what is called "torture" can simply pass off the KILLINGS as "collateral" (and not talking specifically of you YODA...simply borrowed your term)

You keep saying innocent civilians. Civilians yes. Innocent, not proven.

You changed to torture. If you must. I have read the great report on torture that was released the other day. I was shocked. I went through more than that in basic training. If that's all we were doing and calling it torture, I am disappointed. By all the talk over the years, I was sure that we were braking bones, sticking pins under fingernails or worse. Perhaps we should have been beheading captives as our "Peace loving" enemy does?

Just as a matter of comparison, when the British attacked the colonists during the revolution they were in fact attacking civilians. Do you think that they were all "innocent" civilians?

Bucco, obviously you don't like what is going on. Tell us, how would you prosecute this war?

Yoda

of war being waged...using 21st Century mindset....war goes back to the dark ages...and except for the weapons not much has changed...and of course the 24/7 media is ever present.....people die during war.

The wars of today kill far fewer than any wars in history. None of this is intended to be defending of the killing of wars, innocent or other wise....only to present a point of view.

I do support the military doing what ever it takes to get information to save American lives and capture and or kill those who have seorn to kill as many Americans as possible. A lot of the do gooders would change their tune if their families were in the cross hairs of those who would pull the trigger in a heart beat no matter who it is....man, woman, child, elder doesn't matter.

With wars comes death....a fact of life since records have been kept.
Only in America do we make an issue of debating the right from wrong based on the 24/7 media hyper-sensationalization of a war tactics results.
Such an ill defined waste of time. BTK

It is a fraud to say we are at war. When you are at war it is with a country. Germany, Russia, Spain. Military men in military uniforms trying to kill each other with the standard issue rifles and bombs. Terrorist's work on a different timetable. Catch Americans or allies and chop off their respective heads. No uniform of their country as they have none. Just Allah. IED's to me are a little more radical that water boarding. When you are water boarded you cannot die and you know that from the outset. It is how long you can last feeling uncomfortable without talking. On the other hand capture by the terrorist gets you a 10 speech read and a saber sawing off your head. That you can die from. Let's put the running of wars in the hands of the rightful owners the Pentagon and the Military and stop making America look foolish in airing out our dirty laundry as it were. Lastly, stop bowing to Kings and shaking hands and yucking it up with dictators that have already trashed America.

Peter, AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!

Originally Posted by Yoda

You keep saying innocent civilians. Civilians yes. Innocent, not proven.

You changed to torture. If you must. I have read the great report on torture that was released the other day. I was shocked. I went through more than that in basic training. If that's all we were doing and calling it torture, I am disappointed. By all the talk over the years, I was sure that we were braking bones, sticking pins under fingernails or worse. Perhaps we should have been beheading captives as our "Peace loving" enemy does?

Just as a matter of comparison, when the British attacked the colonists during the revolution they were in fact attacking civilians. Do you think that they were all "innocent" civilians?

Bucco, obviously you don't like what is going on. Tell us, how would you prosecute this war?

Yoda

I think we may agree YODA, although you feel a bit more strongly than I about the possible innocence of those killed in Afghanastan !

My problem has been reading the last few days about the released report and the shock shown, the righteous indignation shown about how we treated folks who have already killed, assisted in killing, etc. that were captured. Then hearing almost NO indignation about the killing by the US with drones. Not even reported much but we have specials on the treatment of prisoners.

Seems to me this is more political than real. I support both the drone attacks and also doing what is necessary to get information from folks who have a mission to kill my fellow americans.

How can you be so publicly outraged..so "embarassed" by our treatment of killers in captivity and so blase about killing possible innocent citizens ?

In today's paper there was a political cartoon showing pirates in a small boat looking for prey...they see a ship with an American flag and the caption says...not that one...they hit back.

That is exactly the way we need to have ourselves repositioned....as you say not yukking it up with the enemy.

Obama has a personal agenda to be liked by the leadership of our enemies.
Not until another 911 event or worse will Obama understand the obligation of the office of POTUS....if then!!!

BTK

The only people concerned with the definitions of "war," "police action," "conflict," etc. are those folk who are umteen hundred/thousand miles away from the smell of cordite, torn flesh and scorched blood. For those semanticians, it's an intellectual matter, while for those whose olfactory senses are put to the worst test it does not matter what label is tacked to the hell around you.

Armchair quarterbacking is an American tradition. It's easy to sit at a distance, away from the contact and come with the shoulda, woulda, coulda for any situation. It's even easier to create rules that don't affect whether you or yours will live or die by virtue of their image to others.

I personally don't have any problem with Pres. Obama meeting with any head-of-state on the planet - friend, foe, ally or fence rider. That's part of his job. I don't even have a problem with him meeting anyone more than halfway, and if he or anyone in his entourage screws up with a piece of local protocol or does something the French think is diplomatically dumb, big deal! What I hope he doesn't do is get himself snookered like Pres. Roosevelt (regarding Japan) did in 1941. As long as he realizes these folk are more sly and cunning, smarter (never underestiimate the other guy!)and more experienced at international politics than he or his entourage is, then it's okay.

I'm glad that the U.S. struck back at the pirates in the way that they did. Now there is a lot of international attention to this problem.

On the other hand, you could argue that it takes more confidence, vision and understanding of world issues for the POTUS to reach out vs. staying in ones comfort level, surrounded only by like minded confidants.

Originally Posted by Bucco

I think we may agree YODA, although you feel a bit more strongly than I about the possible innocence of those killed in Afghanastan !

My problem has been reading the last few days about the released report and the shock shown, the righteous indignation shown about how we treated folks who have already killed, assisted in killing, etc. that were captured. Then hearing almost NO indignation about the killing by the US with drones. Not even reported much but we have specials on the treatment of prisoners.

Seems to me this is more political than real. I support both the drone attacks and also doing what is necessary to get information from folks who have a mission to kill my fellow americans.

How can you be so publicly outraged..so "embarassed" by our treatment of killers in captivity and so blase about killing possible innocent citizens ?

I agree that the outrage may be more political than real. I do not have faith in our president. I do not think that he has a sincere bone in his body. He has a plan for us. A plan that most of us reject now and will at the next election.

Do not misunderstand me. I do not care one bit about how we treat terrorists, un-uniformed combatants or bottom feeding scum sucking Muslims who wish me and mine ill. I would be fine with the death of a thousand cuts or the bamboo shoot up the butt. Bamboo shoots grow a foot per night.

We will not be defeated on the battle field. We will not be defeated in our homes. It was they who declared war on us. We are within our rights to inflict such horrendous punishment upon our enemies that they will never dare to cross our paths again.

All of this is meant with love and turning the other cheek.

Yoda

Originally Posted by Yoda

I agree that the outrage may be more political than real. I do not have faith in our president. I do not think that he has a sincere bone in his body. He has a plan for us. A plan that most of us reject now and will at the next election.

Do not misunderstand me. I do not care one bit about how we treat terrorists, un-uniformed combatants or bottom feeding scum sucking Muslims who wish me and mine ill. I would be fine with the death of a thousand cuts or the bamboo shoot up the butt. Bamboo shoots grow a foot per night.

We will not be defeated on the battle field. We will not be defeated in our homes. It was they who declared war on us. We are within our rights to inflict such horrendous punishment upon our enemies that they will never dare to cross our paths again.

All of this is meant with love and turning the other cheek.

Yoda

Heard somewhere today..not sure where to be honest....that they DID NOT release ALL of the memos....never released those memos that showed the RESULTS of the bad things we supposedly did to them and how it helped the country.

I think of the innocent people killed by drones and feel bad about it. Unfortunately for the children and women, their homes may be housing terrorists at night and even a smart bomb can't pick people out of a building. While I really don't feel "sorry" for terrorists being tortured, I would hope if we abided by the Geneva agreements or non-torture for captureds, so would other countries that might capture our young men and women. Even John McCain has come out and said you do not get good information from torturing.

Originally Posted by conn8757

I think of the innocent people killed by drones and feel bad about it. Unfortunately for the children and women, their homes may be housing terrorists at night and even a smart bomb can't pick people out of a building. While I really don't feel "sorry" for terrorists being tortured, I would hope if we abided by the Geneva agreements or non-torture for captureds, so would other countries that might capture our young men and women. Even John McCain has come out and said you do not get good information from torturing.

I admire your hold on idealism but the "hope if we abided by the Geneva agreements or non-torture for captureds, so would other countries that might capture our young men and women." ship has sailed. They even behead and kill correspondents.

NOBODY WANTS any torture at any time. If the memos showing the results from the hard life these killers lived is ever made public perhaps folks will feel different.

I just find it interesting the way we seem to "rationalize" the killing of any innocents from the drones but are standing tall in defense of the Geneva Convention and being mean to killers of americans !