"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it".

Talking about how we got here most certainly IS relevant.

Now I should clarify something. I didn't always hate Bush - and in fact I don't think "hate" is the right word. I am, to be accurate, EXTREMELY disappointed in him. The facts speak for themselves. A large part of it has to be the increased arrogance of the GOP as time went on. It's not like Bush could do all this all by himself. The more and more I saw of Bush it became increasingly apparent that the dynamic, popular governor of Texas was becoming more and more a puppet of those he put in place around him - and Dick Cheney seemed to be at the head of the list.

What happened to the GOP from the "Contract With America" days?

It really hit home for me when we were looking at so many problems in the previous election. We were fighting two wars that weren't going the way we wanted, increasing expenditures, coming out of the dot-com bust, health care crisis, etc.. And what was the leading cry from the GOP leadership? *Arguing against gay marriage*!!!

As a good friend of mine said, "Wars, diseases, crisis all around us and what do we get from the White House: Look! Fags!"

Tell me this isn't puppetry. One day, during a press conference, President Bush says he doesn't think that gay marriage is something that should be decided in the Constitution. He was *against* a Constitutional Ammendment, saying it should be up to the states. I took him at face value for that.

TEN DAYS LATER, he came out in favor of ammending the Constitution. Tell me someone didn't get to him. Someone didn't whisper something in his ear or tell him "No, George, we have to do it THIS way".

This is just one example that I happened to pay close attention to because I have a gay aunt. In addition my adoptive mother hid her bisexuality from me for so long, I had to find out from a COUSIN - she was that fearful of what would happen if word got out. (And me having been married, had two daughters and am now engaged again also puts ammunition against the whole ridiculous 'recruiting' argument)

I can't tell you how many times I defended Bush. I had a great respect for the man despite the fact that I didn't agree with him on everything. But bit by bit, year after year, I lost that respect.

But when it comes to correcting the mistakes, I hear Reagan echoing in my head about "stay the course" and "it takes more than four years" - and he was right.

Interesting commentary coming from one who has only been
 

a memeber since jan 2009!!!!! If you were here during 2008 you have witnessed how the opposition behaved during that year. No matter what one sees in 2009 none will compare to the party, personal attack blitzing by the opposition.
As one told me this morning.....they may not be right all the time but they are never wrong!!!!!

btk

Unfortunately that seems to be the pattern. When people were criticizing Bush, well, let's just say I thought their tactics and methods wouldn't do them any favors.

Now they're reaping what they'd sown.

You can disagree and debate and be civil. If I had to put my finger on the leading reason why it's gotten so bad, I would have to say it's because of news going from "information" to "entertainment" and there fore being a slave to ratings. It's not the ONLY reason, not by a longshot - but if I had to pick #1 with a bullet, that would be it.

Calling George Bush a 'moronic monkey' is about as productive as painting a Hitler moustache on Obama.

I lurked as a GUEST for a lot longer!

So, then two wrongs make a right? Okay, now I understand.

Actually Bucco challenged me the other day to provide him with the post that said that he didn't want to discuss anything thing before January 2009. I was too lazy to take up the challenge and it really wasn't worth the effort. It was his post that I was mostly responding to when he stated:

I thought it was really appropriate to point it out to him. The broad-brush generally fits others as well. :wave::wave::wave:

Just what in your whole post addresses the solution of today's problem? You just repeated the tired old "blame Bush" and said not one thing the current administration is doing right to solve those problems. Whatever generation or political party of the past did or didn't do to screw up our country, is not going to be the one to undo it. Today's problems lay squarely on the back of BO and the Democratic party to correct.

The "blame the past" game is not going to work, as far as convincing the conservatives amongst the population, that BO and the current Congress can and will do the job without turning our country into a semi socialist state or driving us into generational debt. And blaming the past is what your whole post was about.

The only thing that has happened so far is that Bo and Congress have spent massive amounts of tax dollars (actually borrowed money) with little tangible results.

My post was in reply to your note which named Bush, Cheney, Beck, Fox, etc...which prompted..

"1. Bush is no longer President !!"


You then said that you did not want to pass Judgement on the current President until hearing proposals....I suggested that was easy...

"2. Regarding.."Before I go passing judgement on anyone, I'd like to hear what their specific proposals are."...REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH !"

Pretty simple stuff....not sure what you read into it.

I dont paint people with a broad brush....if you want to go back in time...do so...I have not changed one single thing in how I think and in fact my posts during the campaign, in my opinion, are all being validated.

I dont talk much about either party, as that will lead to your broad brush. I just have read very much about our President, including BOTH of his auto biographies and many of the archives in the Chicago newspapers and feel very comfortable in saying I TOTALLY, 100% disagree with all of his philosphies for social change in this country and KNOW from that reading that he can only be one way. That does not make him a bad person, just a social policy that is totally against all I believe.

Pending my decision on his foreign affairs !

I case Ive missed it
 

Has any obvious liberal answered my original Question?:confused:

Yoda

A little correction: You weren't responging to my note which named Bush, Cheney, Beck, Fox, etc... - I think it was djplong's note ...and an excellent note it was.

I predict that you are going to be very, very unhappy for a number of years if you find that you disagree 100% with our President.

Will be unhappy at least until Nov 2010 when some of the incumbents in congress of both parties are voted out !

gnu: That particular post was not a response to the "what do we do now" but to the allegation made by someone else that I hated Bush and that clouded everything.

Now as far as what's going on now that could solve the problems? Unfortunately it's too soon to tell.

Take the GM 'purchase' as an example. I'm really hoping that it turns out like Conrail - where the government took over 6 bankrupt railroads and made one out of them. It bought them in 1976 and sold Conrail for a considerable profit in 1987. The government got it for nothing and lost approximately $2B in the first six years. starting in 1983, however, profits started coming and got larger. In fact, it reported a profit of over $310M in it's final year before the privatization act was passed that mandated a sale to the private sector. That sale went for a little over $1.9B, more than recouping the government's investment when interim profits were taken into consideration.

That's what I'd like to see come from GM.

First things first
 

You have your logic backwards- Present your arguments first, and then draw up a hypothetical conclusion for debate. Yoda is demanding his premise be answered, without presenting any contributing intelligence for or aganinst it.

Bucco wrote: "I dont paint people with a broad brush....if you want to go back in time...do so...I have not changed one single thing in how I think and in fact my posts during the campaign, in my opinion, are all being validated."

Why would you need a broad brush when you always arm yourself with a spray gun?

Amazing Breach of Logic and Honesty
 

Funny, every time 9/11 is mentioned, right wingnuts immediately blame Bill Clinton, even though Bush was in office for 9 months at the time. Yet somehow these same Beckerheads are more than willing to pose paranoid accusations and unanswerable hypotheticals about this president from BEFORE he even took office by a man who is convinced the entire world is out to get him.

Consider the source, consider the context, and consider the rhetoric of fear and paranoia being used to "rally the good people, the Real Americans"
You guys love to drink the Kool-Aid as long as it's as outrageous and malicious as possible.

YOU LOST! GET OVER IT. YOUR ARE A VOCAL BUT VERY SMALL FRINGE MINORITY WRAPPED IN SOME NON-EXISTENT FANTASY OF WHAT AMERICA NEVER WAS.

Bucco you get it
 

Why are you the only one who gets it?

Is the answer maybe that you cannot hold a conversation with a person who's thinking is
based on what they say and not the facts you present.

Amazing Breach of Logic and Honesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnu View Post
"This Group" is smart enough to realize that what happened before January 2009 is not relevant to correcting to future. THIS administration is the one that has the burden of governance for four years and will be responsible for any actions it makes. If the solution of the countries problems lay in the past then we'd need a time machine to go back to correct the problems.

The redirection of the conversation to the blame game towards Bush is the most common flow of these posts, not the other way around.


Funny, every time 9/11 is mentioned, right wingnuts immediately blame Bill Clinton, even though Bush was in office for 9 months at the time. Yet somehow these same Beckerheads are more than willing to pose paranoid accusations and unanswerable hypotheticals about this president from BEFORE he even took office by a man who is convinced the entire world is out to get him.

Consider the source, consider the context, and consider the rhetoric of fear and paranoia being used to "rally the good people, the Real Americans"
You guys love to drink the Kool-Aid as long as it's as outrageous and malicious as possible.

YOU LOST! GET OVER IT. YOUR ARE A VOCAL BUT VERY SMALL FRINGE MINORITY WRAPPED IN SOME NON-EXISTENT FANTASY OF WHAT AMERICA NEVER WAS.

WOW! I post a calm, logical, response to a post in reference to Conservatives being called out as "This Group" and get some tirade and name calling in return. I can't even comprehend the connection between my post and your response. You need to look in the mirror!

Well, let's keep this civil and try not to get into the hyperbole.

Ok, set the wayback machine for January 20, 2009. It's noontime and Obama has just become President.

Who's "fault" is it for the mess that we're in at 12:01 PM? Ok, that's as far as I want to go on that part.

Now, given that, how much time do you think is reasonable for a new administration to get all their people in place (allowing for getting ready to do just that from November to January) and enact measures to try and fix those problems?

I'm not saying how long of a 'honeymoon' but - right, wrong or indifferent - how long do you think it takes to turn things around? I understand that people out there believe it *can't* happen under the current circumstances. (My personal belief is that this is NOT the best of all possible solutions)

It took Reagan a few years.

Because in each of the bail outs or any other
 

money hand out program since 1/20/2009, did not have a plan. You know, how much put in....results expected....some estimate of times for expectations to materialize....where to go if and when something gets off track....etc......good old fashioned business/strategic planning. Non existent. With reports of not knowing where the money has gone......GM not going to be able to pay theirs back and need more....GMAC has already said it cannot make it without more $$$$....Chrysler, ditto.....and all the other too big to fail debacles.

So to merely debate that more time is needed is sort of a waste of time, given the complete lack of planning. This is not peculiar to this administration at all. They just happen to be the one in charge and the one handing $$$$ out faster and in more quantity than predecessors....with out any accountability.

If a plan....even a minimal plan with accountability and what was to be achieved and roughly when....we could all look at the plan and say....OK, needs more time....OK needs more $$$$$....more etc.....but without a plan how is one to know? And pleading for more time to see if a program is working or not given the complete lack of accountability and responsibility is really rather naive.

It is akin to a current administration cruise trip....c'mon let's go...going to be fun....price is right the fed is picking up the bill. The ship is the most elaborate in the world with accomodations fit for a king for all passengers. It will be the best when it is built. Don't worry about where the ship will go, we will figure that out after we leave port and have enough information to make good decisions where to go. Don't worry about how long we will be gone, because you don't want to miss all the wonderful places we will be going.
Yadda....yaddda....yadda.

Just like the programs passed to date! Where? How much? How long? Who?

By the way, plug in any federal program and all the above applies. For example....how we doing on energy independence? You know the other ticking time bomb that when it goes off will minimalize any other issue facing this nation. Yes the war(s). And for stinking :cus: sure health care.

Also note as one cruises the world wide news other major players in the world are doing something about getting away from fossil fuels.

So please don't insult any average accomplishment, thinking, results oriented, make it happen, live human beings with the premise of more time is needed.

THAT AIN'T THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btk

Quote Gnu "Just what in your whole post addresses the solution of today's problem? You just repeated the tired old "blame Bush" and said not one thing the current administration is doing right to solve those problems. Whatever generation or political party of the past did or didn't do to screw up our country, is not going to be the one to undo it. Today's problems lay squarely on the back of BO and the Democratic party to correct." end Quote

Nothing in the above quote mentions "fault". It does address who's responsibility it is, GOING FORWARD, to correct the problems. Once again others are more concerned with blaming Bush than debating whether a socialist style redistribution of wealth is the best way to turn the country around.

YODA is GOD- ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!
 

Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain! The Great and all powerful YODA has commanded you ansert YES or NO!