And EVERY time you recharge it...you LOSE energy. You "soent" 32 units of energy to build it...energy you'll never get back...PLUS each time you recharge it, you lose even more...you go even more negative.

Money and energy are two different things...you need to keep the "units" correct. There is NO coloration between energy and money. You can pay $60 for a barrel of oil that has 8 man years of "work", of energy in it. OR, you can pay 32X that...$1,920 for a lithium battery that REQUIRES more than $60 in charging to release the energy of a barrel of oil.

It's NOT "practical" in an energy efficiency point of view. It's PORTABLE. It's self contained. You plug it in and everything works. It takes 32X the ENERGY in a barrel of oil to make a lithium battery...a $1,920 dollar lithium battery. The ONLY reason we HAVE batteries like we do is that fossil fuels are unbelievably cheap. $60 for 8 man years of energy? It's a steal. BTW...that is what ended slavery. To get a barrel worth of energy from a battery you'd need...20% more than a barrel because of inefficiencies.

Without the luxury of "unlimited cheap fossil fuel power"...we wouldn't have batteries...we couldn't afford them.

Can you explain why the renewable battery that starts your car is not impractical even though it is subject to the same laws of entropy.

A battery isn't renewable...it can be recharged several times...but after it's "life expectancy" it's done...in your golf cart, 5 years tops...in a car...10...then they MUST be replaced at ANOTHER 32X the energy cost of oil.

It's NOT practical...not in an "energy cost to manufacture" sense. A lithium battery takes 32X times the energy it will produce just in manufacture.

THEN you have to charge it which takes MORE energy than you get out...EACH time you charge it.

Your car battery IS taking power from the oil fueled engine to charge it back up after you use it to start the car. The alternator puts a drag on the engine to produce the energy needed for the battery to recharge.

That's where my "entropy" comment came from...from friction, loss due to inefficiency.

Whit a battery you start off with a 32X deficit and it only gets worse EVERY time you charge it.

"Energy" and "money" are two different things. You can buy a LOT of energy for very little money...IF you're buying fossil fuels...otherwise...you pay dearly...in up front manufacture costs.

Solar panels take a LOT of energy to make...more than they'll put out. Wind turbines are very energy intensive to manufacture.

Fossil fuels ARE the ONLY means of CHEAP energy right now and the foreseeable future.

First, entropy has nothing to do with mechanical loss. Don't believe me talk to someone else with a degree in chemistry, chem engineering or physics. This is a fact and is not open to debate. Mechanical loss is real. Next question, is if oil is so energy dense why is electricity from oil the most expensive type of electricity. Also why is hydropower electricity one of the cheapest sources for electricity.

dougie...you just won't give up!

Leave your car out in a field for 100 years...I'll show you entropy...as ORDER (your car) becomes DISORDER (a pile of rust). Chemical breakdown IS entropy. ALL order to disorder is entropy. Oil burning, going from a long complex organic chain with stored energy to CO2 and 2H2O and releasing energy IS entropy. A charged battery with stored chemical energy discharging IS entropy...from ordered to disordered.


You get stuck on WORDS and lose track of the IDEAS that they describe.

HOW many DIFFERENT ways can I explain it to you.

You KEEP going off on tangents.

Forget entropy...OK...stick to the point...you claimed batteries are/will be more efficient...than oil.

I showed you...you're wrong.


One last time...

Oil is the suns energy converted to chemical energy...agreed?

A battery is a man made...artificial holder of chemical energy...agreed?

Lets say you put a solar cell under the sun...you'll get whatever output the sun emits.

Your battery in comparison would be like building a bright light, as bright as the sun...this light is putting out the same energy onto a solar cell in a garage as the one under direct sunlight. So you have 2 solar panels...one under direct sunlight and the other in a garage being lit by an artificial light...getting the same amount of energy.

Which is more ENERGY efficient?

The one that is using sunlight. The sun is providing the energy, not a power plant

Oil is also more efficient because it is direct "saved" sunlight. And not a man made container that needs to be FILLED with energy...artificial sunlight...to work.

You're not impressing me with degrees...Tal supposedly has three.

You're also not impressing me with your reasoning skills.

I'm thinking you're just f@cking with me...you keep sucking me in.

Someone else's turn...to be the fool...or teach an idiot.

Burning oil is an example of a free radical, exothermic (heat given off) reaction and entropy is involved as it is for all types of reactions. If entropy is the reason why we get so much heat would mind explaining how endothermic (heat adsorbed) reactions occur. Hint: you need to understand the 1st, 2nd and 3rd laws of thermodynamics. Yes energy is stored in oil, entropy is not the reason.

Entropy is how you get that energy OUT.

YES YES YES...they are ALL entropic. ALL sources of chemical energy create entropy as the molecules degrade and release energy.

The DIFFERENCE and the REASON why oil is MORE efficient than ANY battery is...

Drum roll...

You have to MAKE batteries out of raw materials...you NEED factories, supply chains, workers...AND...160 times MORE energy than it takes to pump a barrel of oil and burn it. The OIL IS THE RAW MATERIAL. You DON'T have to "do" anything to it before you can use it. A battery HAS to be built and the building of the battery COSTS 32 barrels of oil. PLUS...every time you recharge it...it takes MORE energy than you'll get out.

WHY do you KEEP shifting the discussion to entropy? It was a minor side statement. Are you autistic?

You suckered me in again...

Endothermic reactions involve entropy and they involve putting energy into the reaction. I'm not autistic but I know chemistry. Your lead premis is entropy only involves getting heat out of a reaction and that is incorrect. If your lead premise is wrong why should I believe the rest of it.