Nuclear Agreement

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  #91  
Old 04-07-2015, 01:39 PM
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With all due respect, Reagan negotiated from a position of strength. The ABM system and deployment of the Pershings to Europe was called saber rattling at the time interestingly enough. I think some find the use of strength to be frightening at some level, whereas others are hopelessly wrapped up with moral equivalence coupled with liberal guilt. Not saying that describes you but it certainly does a number of recent posters on this thread imho.

Back to topic, Obama's upbringing was fundamentally anti-Western and we're seeing the fruits of that now. He is by no means negotiating from strength because it's obvious that iran does not fear him ... why should they?
Does Iran fear the other countries that are part of this framework; Russia, China, Germany, France, and the UK?
  #92  
Old 04-07-2015, 01:49 PM
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Does Iran fear the other countries that are part of this framework; Russia, China, Germany, France, and the UK?
No they don't. Iran does want to get rid of the sanctions. But they know with Obama as the leader, they can safely assume the threat of military force is not on the table.

Why is the concept of peace through strength so hard for some people to accept anyways? Historically speaking it's obvious that it works and is the best way to avoid war.
  #93  
Old 04-07-2015, 02:06 PM
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No they don't. Iran does want to get rid of the sanctions. But they know with Obama as the leader, they can safely assume the threat of military force is not on the table.

Why is the concept of peace through strength so hard for some people to accept anyways? Historically speaking it's obvious that it works and is the best way to avoid war.
How much stronger do we need to be? We spend almost a TRILLION dollar on defense each year. We spend more on the military than any other country in the world, so I believe we are always in a position of strength.

At some point, you just have to let countries fight it out among themselves. Probably, one of the worst things to happen was removing Saddam Hussain from power in Iraq. He kept the warring factions at bay, including Iran.

But, hindsight is always 20/20
  #94  
Old 04-07-2015, 02:21 PM
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How much stronger do we need to be? We spend almost a TRILLION dollar on defense each year. We spend more on the military than any other country in the world, so I believe we are always in a position of strength.

At some point, you just have to let countries fight it out among themselves. Probably, one of the worst things to happen was removing Saddam Hussain from power in Iraq. He kept the warring factions at bay, including Iran.

But, hindsight is always 20/20
I have no problem with other countries fighting it out if we don't have a strategic interest ... ie fully agree on that point.

But, it doesn't really matter how much we spend on defense if our enemy has no fear of our leader using or threating to use it. Deterrence is a combination of capability and intentions. In other words, Iran has no reason to be afraid of us and thus we lose the ability to deter their aggressive behavior. Does that seem reasonable to you?
  #95  
Old 04-07-2015, 02:40 PM
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I have no problem with other countries fighting it out if we don't have a strategic interest ... ie fully agree on that point.

But, it doesn't really matter how much we spend on defense if our enemy has no fear of our leader using or threating to use it. Deterrence is a combination of capability and intentions. In other words, Iran has no reason to be afraid of us and thus we lose the ability to deter their aggressive behavior. Does that seem reasonable to you?
That does seem reasonable to me.

However, I don't believe the first effort should be a military offensive or even the threat. What the 5+1 have done, with Iran, is the right thing to do. I hold out hope that Iran would like to join the world community and become more prosperous. The people in Iran are hurting from the sanctions. They have worked or Iran wouldn't be at the table. It will take congressional approval to remove sanctions, that is the congressional role. They have no role in developing an agreement. That responsibility is squarely on the Executive branch of government.

I just don't happen to believe we are in such a position of weakness as some on this board.
  #96  
Old 04-07-2015, 02:56 PM
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I do not think we have to make a threat if we portrayed a strong entity that have a history for winning world wars....have the wher with all to take down any country in the world......and with that conveyed a don't tread on me or my people or my friends or else we will sting you bad.

We are no longer that caliber world power.
We have all the capabilities and have made it known around the world we will not use force even when our citizens are being murdered by terrorists.

We are the paper tiger. Unlike the King of Jordan who responded to the killing of his people within 24 hours. And now the Arabs are going into battle to protect their own.

While we wait and watch......as demonstrated time and again over the past 6 years.

Our enemies have us pegged for what we have earned....wimp status.
  #97  
Old 04-07-2015, 03:58 PM
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LOL. Lucifer is a hawk. Jesus was a dove. I will go with Jesus and leave my future to him. All the talk about streaghth and fear, will never be the best way to obtain peace. I will pray for the Hawks to change their ways and repent from their violent ways. If you show your brother love you will not have to kill him. If I am wrong, I would rather die than murder my fellow man.
  #98  
Old 04-07-2015, 04:20 PM
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That does seem reasonable to me.

However, I don't believe the first effort should be a military offensive or even the threat. What the 5+1 have done, with Iran, is the right thing to do. I hold out hope that Iran would like to join the world community and become more prosperous. The people in Iran are hurting from the sanctions. They have worked or Iran wouldn't be at the table. It will take congressional approval to remove sanctions, that is the congressional role. They have no role in developing an agreement. That responsibility is squarely on the Executive branch of government.

I just don't happen to believe we are in such a position of weakness as some on this board.
God Bless you for your sensible comment. This site desperately needs more of your well thought out posts. Violence should, NO MUST be the last action. In 2015, we are not serving the population of earth with the way of God when we call for killing before peaceful negotiation.
  #99  
Old 04-07-2015, 05:38 PM
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LOL. Lucifer is a hawk. Jesus was a dove. I will go with Jesus and leave my future to him. All the talk about streaghth and fear, will never be the best way to obtain peace. I will pray for the Hawks to change their ways and repent from their violent ways. If you show your brother love you will not have to kill him. If I am wrong, I would rather die than murder my fellow man.
Pacifism in the age of Radical Islam is a effective strategy for national suicide. Mohammed was a warrior and his followers still believe in spreading the religion by the sword.

Interestingly I was reading a history of the Crusades today. Does anyone recall that the entire Middle East and North Africa all used to be Christian? Unfortunately, for them and us, the Muslims slaughtered and fought their way to victory. In other words, the hawks devoured the doves.

A better religious philosophy is "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition"

Sorry ... that's just the way the imperfect world is
  #100  
Old 04-07-2015, 05:41 PM
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LOL. Lucifer is a hawk. Jesus was a dove. I will go with Jesus and leave my future to him. All the talk about streaghth and fear, will never be the best way to obtain peace. I will pray for the Hawks to change their ways and repent from their violent ways. If you show your brother love you will not have to kill him. If I am wrong, I would rather die than murder my fellow man.
Go back and read the post. There was not a word said about killing anybody.

And what should we do about Jihadi John and his collection of American heads from his fellow man?
  #101  
Old 04-07-2015, 05:50 PM
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That does seem reasonable to me.

...I hold out hope that Iran would like to join the world community and become more prosperous. ....
It's one thing to "hope" for this but it's not a strategy by which to deter a Radical Islamic regime. Don't forget ... it's a genuine theocracy thus their militant faith is what drives them. I think you are projecting Western liberal values onto a fundamentalist medieval-oriented regime except it is armed to the teeth with modern weapons.
  #102  
Old 04-07-2015, 05:55 PM
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Recently two questions were asked on this thread regarding the Iran deal. Here they are again by way of quick summary:
1. Does anyone think this deal will prevent Iran from getting nukes at some point?

2. Once they have nukes, does anyone believe the Iranians will refrain from using them (covertly) in nuclear jihad.
Up until today, no posters have responded. But, President Obama apparently reads the TOTV Political Blog because he has now answered the first question.

Turns out it is NO ie the deal WILL allow Iran to get nukes down the road. (my reaction: what a surprise and who could have possibly known??)


Heres what Obama said:
What is a more relevant fear would be that in Year 13, 14, 15, they have advanced centrifuges that enrich uranium fairly rapidly, and at that point, the breakout times would have shrunk almost down to zero."

So now we need someone to answer question 2.
  #103  
Old 04-07-2015, 07:36 PM
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It's one thing to "hope" for this but it's not a strategy by which to deter a Radical Islamic regime. Don't forget ... it's a genuine theocracy thus their militant faith is what drives them. I think you are projecting Western liberal values onto a fundamentalist medieval-oriented regime except it is armed to the teeth with modern weapons.
I didn't say it was a strategy. I said "I Hope", as in me, the private citizen. I'm not the Secretary of State or the President.

The Iranians have a relatively new government and the people are struggling under the collapse of oil prices and sanctions from the international community. "I HOPE" they would like to see a better future for their people than what they currently have.

All I can do is "guess" what might happen, just like everyone else on this board.
  #104  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:51 PM
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I didn't say it was a strategy. I said "I Hope", as in me, the private citizen. I'm not the Secretary of State or the President.

The Iranians have a relatively new government and the people are struggling under the collapse of oil prices and sanctions from the international community. "I HOPE" they would like to see a better future for their people than what they currently have.

All I can do is "guess" what might happen, just like everyone else on this board.
Have you taken a look at North Korea in recent years. That is how much Iran worries about a better life for their people. Zero. Nada. Same values as NK.....gimme the N bomb and a palace.
A dose of reality is sorely needed by some!
  #105  
Old 04-08-2015, 07:55 AM
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Have you taken a look at North Korea in recent years. That is how much Iran worries about a better life for their people. Zero. Nada. Same values as NK.....gimme the N bomb and a palace.
A dose of reality is sorely needed by some!
Take your dose of reality. You cannot speak about your knowledge unless you have seen it personally.
 

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