This is prevented with socialism??

What did the Emancipation Proclamation do?

Richie: Correct me if I'm mischaracterizing, but any time any regulation of any sort comes out of Washington, it's called "socialism" (whether it has anything to do with economics or not). My point was that there IS a role for Washington in setting certain standards - and which standards those are is a matter for debate. I chose that particular example to make a point.

bk: Immediately or over time?

The thing is; the emancipation of the blacks following the Civil War is a prime and perfect example of the recognition of "rights of the individual", the primary tenet of conservatism as opposed to socialism . The blacks had to be recognized first as equal human beings and then their individual rights were self evident in this "land of the free". This was not a case of the government granting the blacks rights. It was government that allowed their subjugation. They had to be freed FROM the government who's laws facilitated the practice of slavery.

Thank you RichieLion.

Richie - ok, at least I understand where you are coming from.

So to continue to drill down in this a bit..

What is your opinion on balancing the following two points of view?

1) Individual liberties and competition at it's best. Whomever will sell me a barrel of oil the cheapest will get my business so I can be more competitive because my energy costs will be lower.

2) Tragedy of the Commons. Individuals can't be trusted to go out each day and deny money to terrorist organizations funded by oil revenues. Since the only time people listen is when it hits them in the wallet, we need to hike import taxes (or ALL taxes) on oil to discourage their use. Perhaps by choking off the money supply, we can de-fang terrorist groups more cheaply than with huge military expenditures.

Those are the two positions that, I grant you, I'm wondering where in between them I stand. My gut says 'the individual' but if I step back and try to look at 'the big picture' there's something to be said for working together for a common goal - and dragging the myopic along kicking and screaming (like when your mother told you to eat your veggies even though you didn't want to).

I'm not afraid to admit that I'm trying to find something in between and it's difficult to draw a line.

But I will say this. Cap and trade? Sounds bad to me - mostly because we don't know where the money goes. When I buy a ticket on Amtrak, I'm asked if I want to purchase "carbon offsets" to 'be green'. I have no idea where this goes.

Now, if someone put out an energy tax who's revenues went directly into an 'energy infrastructure bank' that would pay for new generation nuke plants, clean coal, wind and solar farms - THAT I might go for.

I'd like less laws and more information. Investigate and find the money trail of the energy producers and let the people know and let the people make their own decision. Then your fellow citizens can also decide how to relate to you when they see how you spend YOUR energy dollar. That's freedom.

The main thing this country has to do in regard to energy is to kick Sierra Club and any other so-called environmentalist group, which are rampant with communist influences, in their collective asses and drill for the black stuff everywhere and anywhere it can be extracted. There are some geologists whos think we might have 200 years or more of oil in our own reach. There are also some who put it much lower, but I still say go for it.

Then, if you wish, we can discuss huge import taxes to cut off the foreign oil. One without the other only destroys our own economy.

"2) Tragedy of the Commons. Individuals can't be trusted to go out each day and deny money to terrorist organizations funded by oil revenues. Since the only time people listen is when it hits them in the wallet, we need to hike import taxes (or ALL taxes) on oil to discourage their use. Perhaps by choking off the money supply, we can de-fang terrorist groups more cheaply than with huge military expenditures."

You forget the legislative branch and the judicial branch in your scenerio djplong. Even if you don't have faith in humankind, I trust these two branches of government when the proper checks and balance and applied, as something that people listen to more than their wallets.

It was more an intellectual exercise so I could better understand the other's opinion.