From what I have read it is not a matter of welfare in itself....it is the creation of a WELFARE STATE...in that the more a state spends the more they can get. The reading I have seen indicates that President Clinton was all for welfare but did not want to create a WELFARE STATE !

Welfare are terms from yester year.....
 

I believe there should be help of some form FOR THOSE WHO TRULY NEED IT....VS those who know well how to use the system for self indulgence....like a family on food stamps still managing to buy cigarettes and booze.

In our current age of entitlement it the hand outs are ecpected and abused.

Most of the programs have very weak, ambiguous threshold qualifications and follow up, hence abuse and longevity in the program.

Use some of the funding to provide JOBS to people to administer the billions being tossed into the wind.....nah that makes too much sense.

There should be an expectation of some sort of work to be done to get the benefit like the old WPA.....why not?

BTK

Great question. While there are likely more people than not that do genuinely need assistance, as is usually the case those that abuse the system tend to color the majority that do not.
I am a great fan of doing at least SOME kind of work in exchange for public assistance. Those of able mind and body could provide a plethora of services that communities are in dire need of, perhaps decreasing the cost of state and local governments. I am not sure of all the reasons something like this is put in place, but I suspect it has a lot to do with generations of families having been raised with a sense of entitlement and some simply knowing no other way. If you are never taught or shown anything different it tremendously lessens the odds of breaking out of the cycle.
We as a nation have tolerated/allowed this to become what it is, our complacency as the programs grew and generations 3 and 4 joined the fray is certainly a culprit. We allowed our lawmakers on BOTH sides of the isle to continue with it as business as usual. Question is...will we demand and receive something different?

Welfare System
 

I'm not the best at saying things, but I'd like to add something to this. Our company at home tried to help some of the needy each Christmas with a big project they developed. When you work with something like that, you see it all. I agree with those who have problems with people on welfare still buying their cigarettes, magazines, booze, or continue to have a baby every 9 months. Some even have late model cars in the drive. It shouldn't be allowed to happen in the system. Another thing we saw that I have a very real problem with is the way the welfare system appeared to work then (it could have changed by now). One lady we helped, did not qualify for any assistance from the welfare system because she had a minimum wage part-time job. She had been married and had 2 small children. He did a disappearing act on them. She was going to school to try a get a decent paying job.
Why can't the system help those who are trying to help themselves?

I do not believe that ANYONE is against welfare for those who need it.

Presidents Reagan and Clinton both worked hard to enure that welfare was for those who should get it but encouraged folks to get to work.

The point is that this stimulus bill ENCOURAGES folks to go on welfare...the more on welfare the more the states get.

A link from today...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5733499.ece

And the more who go on the dole, the more the shrinking number of taxpayers have to support - and that means higher taxes.

The societal problems which have led to multi-generational families on welfare, or always in line for Toys for Tots while on a cellphone/IPOD, or sporting a $100 set of painted nails, or recently decorated with $1,000 worth of body art, are not going to be corrected by making welfare a "right."

We complain that unemployment is rising, but we still have over 10 million "undocumented" workers - and if you replaced them with the current US citizens who are unemployed, we'd have a ZERO unemployment rate.

The stock market is back at the same level as when the Dot.Com's tanked. It hasn't gotten worse than that, and the world survived without the US going $1Trillion+ further in debt.

Helping those who have found themselves in dire straights is an American tradition. Subsidizing families for generations only because the agencies which dispense the money need to keep a case-rate at a certain high to justify the jobs of the case workers and the agency itself seems what has happened. And what is to insure that when the "problems" have dissipated, that the government agencies and workers put in place to dispense this generation of funds will ever go away. Or will we have more give-aways in the future because we can't get rid of the give-away staff?

“The wise man saves for the future, but the foolish man spends whatever he gets.”

Proverbs 21:20

Seems we are also spending all that we don't have as well. How foolish does that make us?

We made a decision in November to go this way...the country did it with their eyes wide open. This, and all the other antics already (waiving ethics rules, etc,) are just the beginning. It was predictable !

It's kind of interesting, yet also quite predictable that many are pronouncing every problem every day as "Obama's" and occuring since November. Let's at least keep in perspective the fact that he walked into a mess set in motion by those in office long before him and some of the irresponsible public at large. No president in history has walked into a situation of this magnitude, with no prior "rules for repair" to glean from. It is so easy to pronounce the present administration a failure this early into the process. Most prudent people realize that whatever unfortunate soul walked into this mess would untimately face the rath of the other party, and any candidate would have ample ammunition already in place to castigate him, ammunition put in place by those before him. More useless posturing that gets us no further ahead.
I am puzzled that people on either side of our pitiful partisan arguments can be haughty enough to think they can be completely right or completely wrong with regard to solutions to our present economic catastrophe. Lots of pundits on either side are so concrete in their assessment what what is right and wrong about the present "stimulus package"...where were all these brilliant scholars over the last several years as we sank deeper and deeper into the situation we now find ourselves in?
Again, it really seems quite predictable that any candidiate from any party that "won" this election would be almost immediately be the subject of the blame game from the start with "opponents" lashing out at them from the beginning because it is so easy to do so. I happen to think it is important to remember what/who got us here and keep some fair perspective as we attempt to navigate in unknown waters.
I cannot pretend to know what parts of this will ultimately be successful, and with honesty not many others can either. There are certainly parts of polices that we will all disagree with, but to simply condem every single step of the way is unrealistic at this point. Further, no matter who would have won this election, 4 years down the road we would not be back in the promised land, but it will be so easy to condemn at that point. I am doing my best to learn, voice opposition to things I don't agree with, support the things I do, and avoid blanket condemnations based on personality and tired political ideaolgy that really doesn't fit the present situation any longer.
I hope and pray daily that we achieve a collection of souls with the knowledge,insight,and ability to listen that will help guide us through this. There is no way we will all be satisfied every step of the way but some compromise, support, and willingness to change seem to be absolutely necessary to hope to achieve some success.

Your points are well taken and I understand your feelings. HOWEVER...

I, and others, predicted BEFORE President Obama was even the nominee that should he be elected that we would have an administration/congress (the perfect storm) that despite all the pretty words would be ultra political (waiving of ethics, attempt to control the census, etc) ultra government (Nothing like the current doings in WASH) and would lead us down this socialist path. My words are not those of someone who didnt say it BEFORE he was nominated. If you did ANY research on his background you would find that he is and was always of this mind.

He and the congress have done nothing to change my mind in any way...fact is they are doing it quicker. Someday the pretty oratory will wear thin and folks will wake up !!!!

I also might add since you mentioned this...NEVER have I said anything about President Obama personally...NEVER. He is a smart and obviously articulate man but there is nothing in his background that would indicate he will be anything but what he is..a smart politician who believes in socialism !

I will say what I have been saying since the election...I pray I am wrong....do not think there is a chance I am...but if I am, I will be here saying mea culpa, but thus far not even a hint of anything that could not have been predicted !!!

Knowing how sensitive you are to perceived criticism I went out of my way to make sure I did not address you personally. Do me the same favor and save your pronouncements on your perception of my depth of research for those interested in them. You are not acurate in your prononucements no do I care to be caught up in petty personality issues.
Further your opinions on what "mind" Obama is of are just that..opinions, no more right or wrong than those with differing opinions.
Finally, I "NEVER" addressed anything you said or didn't personally say.."NEVER"...so leave me out of it.
I am looking for those thoughts that are open minded, challenging, and looking to participate in seeking a solution, whether they fit my ideology or not. Tired old partisan blame tactics and ideology will not fit or work in today's situation and I have decided to move beyond them in my thought process.

Sorry dont meet your standards...I promise to work at it.

First of all, OF COURSE what I say is my opinion SAME AS WHAT YOU SAY is yours. Is that not what this board is about ?

I shared NO perception of your research and in fact didnt even think about YOU when I was typing. In rereading perhaps I offended you with my misuse of the caps and you took that personally.

I surely will "leave you out of it" as you say....didnt think I "brought you into it"......you said in your post "based on personality" and that small part of your post is what I addressed although at no time did I mention you or your post excecpt when I said your points were well taken.

You said "It's kind of interesting, yet also quite predictable that many are pronouncing every problem every day as "Obama's" and occuring since November". I ignored that since I have not seen that happen at all anywhere.....most of the discussion Ihave seen have been about his solutions.

To your comments....."You are not acurate in your prononucements no do I care to be caught up in petty personality issues. "......I never professed to being toally accurate in what you call my "pronouncements" BUT I did think this was a place to share opinions....and have no idea whatsoever what you mean by "petty personality issues" as again, my post began with "Your points are well taken and I understand your feeling...".......what did you want me to do if I disagree?

I DONT believe myself to be close minded as you suggest...perhaps those who say that are just a bit, dont you think ? I said and said it over and over again how I feel and that I will be the first in line to say I was wrong (done it many times)...perhaps you should open your mind a bit to other thoughts instead of condemning those who feel strongly the other way.

Your comment about "Tired old partisan blame tactics and ideology will not fit or work in today's situation" is confusing as I blamed NOBODY for anything...but your comment does sound like a sound bite from the campaign. If you disagree you are not open !!! Glad you are moving beyond those tired old partisan tactics as you say, but you obviously dont feel voting on a bill without reading it BECAUSE of party is a bad thing but I do, and feel just as strongly about those who voted against the bill because of party pollitics.

It is a two way street and to be so smitten with a policy because someone who is able to say things in such convincing manner tells you that this is bi partisan does not make it so. IF criticizing the current administration and congress is preceived to be "tired old partisan politics" even if the criticism is necessary or valid, then they have accomplished what they want !!!

I really had to think before replying to this, but I will, you are accountable for what you say.
"If you did ANY research on his background you would find that he is and was always of this mind." Your words. Your perception of my research.

"I also might add since you mentioned this...NEVER have I said anything about President Obama personally...NEVER. He is a smart and obviously articulate man but there is nothing in his background that would indicate he will be anything but what he is..a smart politician who believes in socialism !" I never said you did.
"perhaps you should open your mind a bit to other thoughts instead of condemning those who feel strongly the other way." I never condemned you or others for their opinion, and I submit that I am quite open minded, your judgement not withstanding.
"Your comment about "Tired old partisan blame tactics and ideology will not fit or work in today's situation" is confusing as I blamed NOBODY for anything...but your comment does sound like a sound bite from the campaign. ". It really shouldn't be confusing as it is a simple and straightfoward statement of opinion. You seem to have a penchant for turning things into some personal judgement of you...the statement was general. As for it sounding like like a sound bite from the campaign...that's kinda funny, but I feel safe in saying there are alot of people fed up with antiquated partisan bickering down lines drawn in an era that was much different than today's.
"but you obviously dont feel voting on a bill without reading it BECAUSE of party is a bad thing but I do, and feel just as strongly about those who voted against the bill because of party pollitics.". Again, how you can pronounce what I "obviously" feel is beyond me, and frankly innapropriate.

In essence I took the time to answer this because you should be held accountable for the things you say. I have no personal issues with you but will not be bullied or allow inaccurate statements about me to stand. This should be a place to exchange ideas and participate in healthy debate, not a place however where innacurate statements or accusations are allowed to stand. That is what drives so many from the forum.

Imho...
 

Strictly my opinion, I think the only mistake that President Obama is making is to try the "high road" to bi-partisanship. Seriously, why bother. Listening to McCain and the rest was a joke. These are the same people that presided over and got us into the fragile place we are today. Ya, Like I'd really want their input. :yuck: They are showing themselves for what they are. "Fiscal Responsibility" HA! Don't make me laugh.

Let's keep our eye on the ball. This is a global crisis and not just an American crisis. And Bucco, if I'm understanding you correctly, and that's always a big "IF", one prediction of yours might be right. If I know my Chicago homies, and I think I do, there will come a time --- not far down the road, when President Obama will say "OK, I've tried. Enough! Let's get this done with or without you" (Referring to the ultra right conservatives.) The Republicans are taking a big gamble here. And I don't think they're going to win come election time. Yes, the American people would like the parties to work together, and Obama said "We will extend a hand, if you unclench your fist." He meant that for this country too, not just others. Well, he extended a hand and got it slapped. The great thing is, he will learn from this mistake. The Republicans did not unclench their fists. And now they can shove them where the sun don't shine, because President Obama is intelligent enough to now change his negotiating tactics. Just watch.

President Obama is looking ahead, far reaching. There are some on this board that are so myopic they cannot possibly find anything supportive to say about him. As I said on another board, you should be praying, PRAYING, that your President succeeds.

Simple solution for McCain and friends.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/16/begala.carolina/

Well stated. I hate that it is so but I am not naive enough to think everyone is willing to set their own political/personal interests aside to some degree and compromise, although I will still hold out hope.

The myopic reference is quite aprapro, again though I would like to think that somehow there will be a meeting of the minds on what is best for our country long term (a tough thing to discern at this point) by well informed and concerned people. New times and new situations require innovative solutions and a willingness to change..on "both sides" such as they are. I am holding out hope and offering support to those that are willing to do the right thing for our country aside from personal gain or staunch idealogy.

Two brief points: 1) Those of us that venture into the political forum have vastly different definitions of "success" and 2) If Nancy Pelosi in any way is a representative for the Democratic Party and President Obama, she's never come close to an unclenched political fist. She is a political combatant.

If we get this passionate about our political views on this forum, imagine what it's like in the halls of Congress. Bi-partisan is an oxymoron.

Very well said.

Yes!
 

I completely agree with you on Pelosi, she needs to be reigned in. Obama will get to it, just watch. ;)

Looking for bipartisanship (for both Dems & Reps) has always been looking for partners in crime and blame downstream should **** hit the fan. When there were no Reps in the conference committees to resolve differences in the House and Senate bills, 'nuff said about bipartisanship.

There's clenched fists on both sides of the aisle, and most have the middle finger extended towards the taxpayer.

It's a global crisis only because most of the world relies on US consumerism, and when the US slows its buying, the rest of the world is impacted. Ironically, all of those outsourced jobs are the first to be affected, followed by cheap goods made in Communist countries which don't have any labor-protection standards and abysmal human rights records - and those nations seem to all have "favored nation trading partner" status - thanks to lobbyists who bankroll Dems and Reps alike.

The "Say something good about Pres. Obama" - the choice for Secretary of Homeland Security was excellent. Ms. Napolitano is the right person at the right time of DHS' history.

The prayers for Pres. Obama being successful are legion. However, many of the prayers are that he remains presidential versus pseudo-regal. There is quite a difference.

I sure dont want to get into a war of words with you !!! I began my response to you with the following words...."Your points are well taken and I understand your feelings." Anything that came after that was a result, IN MY OPINION of your sensitivites, not mine but I surely can apologize for anything you perceived as personal, but my post was not even remotely about YOU and my first sentence was to let you know that whatver I disagree with I do with respect, but you obviously did not see it that way !

I, and SIXTY MILLION OTHER AMERICANS, did not feel that President Obama was the answer for this country in November.

I opposed his nomination and his election openly from the very beginnning on this board. As a result of that, I was called on here and in PM's a racist (NOT even close), a neo con (NOT in the same world) and a Bushie or other remarks to denote the same thing (WAY WAY WAY out of my world), and I am not going to apologize for my opinion and feeling.

There are those on here who during the primary called him names (empty suit, etc) and now feel he is the best thing in the world.

If being close minded is the new racist, neo con, Bushie or whatever that means I must agree with everything he does or I am one of the above...sorry !

Thus far he has done nothing to change my mind in anyway about how I feel and I will add that during the campaign I said on a number of occassions that his election with this specific congress made it even worse and I still feel that way.

I sure wish that those who are on this board espousing holier than thou comments about bi partisanship and reaching across the aisle could have been saying this during the last 12 years or so, but it only seems the "thing to do" now.

"President Obama is looking ahead, far reaching. There are some on this board that are so myopic they cannot possibly find anything supportive to say about him. As I said on another board, you should be praying, PRAYING, that your President succeeds."
__________________________________________________ _____--


Here is my problem......If you have any criticisms of this adminstration already you hear how you are looking for problems, or you should be praying and praying and you should say nothing but good things about him.

I can find much to support about him but am I disqualified now to criticize him or I am (Fill in the adjective from A to Z) ?

I have never in my life bowed down to an administration and held back on criticizing them if I disagreed, but it seems that is what is being asked and frankly that simply validates my fears about this entire election.

Ditto. It is not unAmerican to criticize an administration, as most of those who criticized the previous administration always stated (and correctly so).

The beauty of this democratic republic is that one voice can speak freely in criticism, even if the entire population's voices sound in disagreement. The ability for lawful vigilance by that one is what protects the entire population from the government becoming "Of Itself" instead of "Of the People."

Here's more food for thought and basically what I've been saying all along. The scam he and his minions are pulling of is disgraceful and disgusting not to mention scary as hell.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123457303244386495.html

Pray that Obama succeeds?

If Oboma succeeds we'll be a european style socialist state with everyone depending on the government for their survival not to mention the bottomless pit of debt he is putting us in. I pray that he doesn't succeed and I pray he is sent packing in four years before he has a chance to finish off what's left of our founding fathers design for this country.

Stop your whining!
 

8 years of Bush got us into this mess. How about cutting off those wasted billions of $$ in Iraq not to mention the 4000+ lives, and just where are those nukes hiding and "the oil money will pay for this", "welcomed with flowers", etc., etc. You're taxes will be paying for the Iraq fiasco for the "next 100 years" to quote John McBush. Obviously, Bush/Cheney/Bill O'Reilly and the other flag huggers didn't learn any thing from the waste of lives and $$ in Viet Nam! Oops, sorry they were too busy letting others be "patriotic"!

You assume I'm a fan of GW? So let's say everything you say is true. Will piling on another couple trillion dollars of debt, government pork spending and socializing our private sector infrastructure help small business create more jobs? Hum...

Maybe if Obama really pours on the coal next week and tells everyone the great depression #2 is actually here maybe that will spur business to hire more people.

Sounds like a great plan to me. :a040:

Just keep printing that money and giving it to congress and everything will be alright.

Read it!
 

I think this was overlooked before, but I absolutely agree! If all the Republican Congressmen and Senators are so against this package they should NOT TAKE THE MONEY! Just simply refuse it. Go back to your constituents and explain it to them as you dodge tomatoes.

Let them sit on their high horses and look the man in the eye that can't feed his family. Let them tell the seniors that lost everything how we should just sit back and do nothing. Let them tell the couple with the sick or dying child, sorry, so sorry, but our ideology is so much more important.

HEY REPUBLICANS! JUST DON'T TAKE THE MONEY! DO NOTHING! PUT YOUR HEADS IN THE SAND AND DO NOTHING! YOU'RE VERY, VERY GOOD AT THAT!

But... somehow I don't think that's going to happen. They'll be the first in line with their grubby little paws out in hopes of getting re-elected. Mark my words. :ohdear:

This is a very sad statement. Shame on you. :ohdear:

It really defies all logic to me that the only eyes wide open in this country are those opposing the present administration. To infer that every person that supports our currently president is simply being scammed, that there are no cognisent people except those in opposition, is a blanket condemnation of a such a large cross section of our country that it loses credibility. There are great minds and intellects an both sides of the isle and to condemn such a large part of our population as basically lacking intelligence is not only illogical, it is completly unrealistic. Disagreement does confer gullibility.
And again, let's at least remember all of those that contributed to the start of this "socialism" that was placed before Obama.
I didn't "pray" Bush failed though many of his policies were deplorable and damaging...he was our leader and made his choices..that time/era is done now.

Since when has it been the governments job to give cradle to grave care to all who think they deserve it?

There’s this thing called the Constitution but let’s not let that get in the way. Where's the Constitutional power the government has to transfer money from one person to another or take over large segmanets of the private sector? That's exactly what Obama means to do in a big way.

How about the folks who are about to lose their homes. Some of our tax dollars in the form of stimulus is going to pay down their principle so they can keep their homes. A part of that will be coming out of my paycheck. Well hells bells, I want my principle paid down to. Where’s my cut?

Chelsea24, Here’s a direct question to you. Given the government only operates on taxes it collects from us, how much of what I earn belongs to you and why? How much of my paycheck each week should go to you… or anyone?

And you are absolutely correct. Anyone who takes us down the socialist government controlled road should be run out of town on a rail and I don't care who they are or what party they belong to Bush included.

It feels real good to get on a soap box and cry the blues for all the poor and downtrodden and how the government should do something… anything at any expense. It’s nothing but liberal pap. The outcome or consequences never really matter as long as it makes you feel good saying it. But let's all wish Mr. Obama nice nice because that makes us feel good and above the rest.

You think hammering republicans will get a rise out of people? Some of you seem to think that if you’re anti-Obama you’re automatically pro republican or pro Bush. Think again my friends.

And yes, A good portion of the American people have been scammed by a slick talking radical who cares little about the recovery and more about power and control. Do you honestly believe these trillions of government pork spending will help the economy? Wait a few years and we'll talk again.

You can turn your heads away and ignore the Constitution and every single principle our country was founded on but I never will.

Some of you may think I’m cruel. Well here’s a real zinger for you. Anyone who supports this ridiculous, irresponsible pork barrel, government takeover stimulus package is dropping this right on the backs of our children and grand children. Now that’s what I consider cruel. Shame on me?

If anyone has a desire to learn more about this political position I again recommend Ron Paul's book, Revolution.

BTW, at 9am today the Dow futures are down almost 200 points. The financial investment community has not responded in a positive way to the stimulus plan. Why?

most certainly agree
 

You could not have said it better. :agree::agree:

There's more people who agree with you than may say so out loud.

I want Pres. Obama to succeed, but for me "success" is to not commit high crimes and misdemeanors which lead to impeachment.

Regarding earlier posts in this string concerning Iraq and Vietnam, let me make myself perfectly clear:

- - - had not the Clinton administration, in its quest to cut budgets involved in American defense, slashed away the US intelligence effort which took generations to develop, there's a good chance that there may never have been a 9/11, as the bad guys would have been neutralized on the other side of the Atlantic - as we used to be able to do. For the Clintonites who want to ignore what their hero did to the US military and the intelligence community, you can "ostrich" on this all you want, or cry "foul" if you so choose. That doesn't change what occurred in the Clinton administration, whatever the reasons for doing so and whether the risk seemed worthwhile or not.

- - - the US actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have made it clear that if the international bullies want to swipe at the US, their world will get lit up big-time. Those brave men and women who serve and sacrifice in the "sandbox" are buying us time to rebuild our former capacity to keep the bad guys off our turf. We've made a lot of progress in that regard thanks to them, but that's the cost for previously reduced vigilance in exchange for more entitlement programs.

- - - As a Vietnam Vet I've heard too many times how we "lost the war" there, mainly from folk who have no idea what were the circumstances for the American involvement and what could be achieved in that environment. You can have any opinion you want - mine is at http://www.geocities.com/matlock.cvma/why-vietnam.htm

I'm reminding myself that the existing (and shrinking) pool of US taxpayers just found that each and every taxpayer is now tagged with another $9,000 more in future taxes due, plus interest, just to pay for this stimulus package. Some of us will pay our share and then some - some will pay little towards this levy. If you are filing "joint," then double the levy. So, what do you think you'll actually get for your $9000 (or $18,000 if filing jointly)? Or are you part of the herd which rides the coattails of others?

If anyone watched CNBC today around 4 pm.... ouch! The pundits described the bailout as the WORST thing that Washington could have done. They said the economy is (are you ready)--- PERMANENTLY,yes, PERMANENTLY damaged by this legislation.... gee, no wonder the DOW was down 4% (300 more points). Is CNBC an NBC news affialiate???? You know NBC, the prowd sponser of MSNBC and Keith "obsessed with Bill O" Oberman. Another barf by The Street

Yes. I hear now on the news that they may be coming back for yet another spending package on top of the one today. My God, when are people going to wake up to what's going on here.

No secret where I stand on this, but as I read the posts and recall the campaign I remember a quote from Saul Alinsky.....Alinsky the man who has been mentioned a few times on here and sort of mocked...the author of the bible for radicals, studied and supported strongly by our new President. A book by the way, dedicated to Satan !

The quote...

"A reformation means that masses of our people have reached the point of disillusionment with past ways and values. They don't know what will work but they do know that the prevailing system is self-defeating, frustrating, and hopeless. They won't act for change but won't strongly oppose those who do. The time is then ripe for revolution. "


Sort of November, 2008

:thumbup: I agree! Thank God someone on the forum has a grain of common sense. I was beginning to get worried.

Obama ordered 17,000 Marines to Afghanastan today... Where is the angst about this decision???

There are many RVN Vets reading this forum who do NOT take kindly to their fallen brothers and sisters being called a waste. Think seriously about your statement.

Huh???
 

I'm confused. What is your problem with this. This is where we should have been before Bush decided to fight Daddy's war. Iraq depleted us, ruined our reputation in the world and cost thousands of lives. And you're against Afganastan??? Do you remember 9/11? chilout