I began this thread for selfish as well as discussion sake. I really struggle with the economics of our government, and hope we may have some real gurus that can carry a thread on our deficit.

I think it is serious, and does not get proper attention.

I offer a few things that might get a conversation begun.

"The U.S. federal budget deficit is $441 billion as of the most current budget estimate. That's for fiscal year 2017, which covers October 1, 2016 through September 30, 2017. The deficit occurs because the U.S. government spending of $4.07 trillion is higher than its revenue of $3.63 trillion.Feb 9, 2017
Current US Federal Budget Deficit: Causes, Effects - The Balance
The Balance - Make Money Personal › current-u-s...

Trade Deficit in U.S. Widens to Largest in Almost Five Years - Bloomberg

Donald Trump: President'''s Budget Could Bury U.S. in Debt | Fortune.com

What do you want to know? That's it's a giant ponzi held up by air? By debt?

That we have a fiat currency, backed by nothing but "faith", there is no gold or silver, no assets backing it. It's "worth" is that of the paper it's printed on.

Interest rates are being held artificially low so the government can make the minimum interest charges. $20 trillion of debt costs about $600 billion a year in interest. That's with an average interest rate of 3% it is VERY low. Too low. Lower than it should be by half. If interest rates went to what they should be...it would be over $1 trillion a year. We "borrow", we "print" money to pay the interest...that is NEVER a good thing.

We have fractional reserve banking that creates money out of thin air. The Fed creates "money" by creating "credit" that the big banks use to make loans. NOBODY has anything on the line, there's nothing to lose, they simply enter it into a computer. The banks can lend all but 10% of deposits. They charge interest on this "credit" loaned. Every $100 loaned originally can be reloaned up to 9X, creating $900. The bank hasn't put up a thing and it can collect interest on $900.

The economy crashed in 2008 and it's been artificially kept alive with over $1 trillion a year in borrowing. EVERYTHING is being propped up, "bubbles" are everywhere. The Fed is giving banks money to buy bonds and stocks. Programs like POMO, QE1, II, III, Twists, are all accounting shell games to keep everything "appearing" to be good and going up.

Only 1/3 the population is working the rest are "out of the workforce". 1/3 can't support an empire and half the population collecting something from the government. 50 million cannot be added to the "insured" on the backs of those same working 1/3 the population. A $ trillion can't be spent each year on welfare to unproductive people. A $ trillion a year can't be spent on a military to keep the empire stable.

Whites are 49% of the population, down from 90% during America's peak years of the 50s. The baby boom is being replaced by a minority boom. NOWHERE that is a majority black/brown is successful. EVERYWHERE that become a majority black/brown becomes poorer and more dangerous. The economy will NEVER recover with them as the majority. It has fallen and it's never getting up.

The stock market is NOT an economic indicator. It is manipulated. Buy the dip.

That's the cliff notes version.

I share your concern about the national debt but it continues to go up with absolutely no pain or downside. That is why very few are concerned or worried about it. If we had to increase taxes to equal what is spent, I think that is called a balanced budget, the percentage of Americans concerned would increase proportionally to the pain of paying for what is spent. IMO

Originally Posted by Guest

I share your concern about the national debt but it continues to go up with absolutely no pain or downside. That is why very few are concerned or worried about it. If we had to increase taxes to equal what is spent, I think that is called a balanced budget, the percentage of Americans concerned would increase proportionally to the pain of paying for what is spent. IMO

The problem for most people in understanding why debt doesn't affect a country like it would an individual, lies in the fact that public debt...is not the same as yours and my debt.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/09/o...ands-debt.html

Because debt is money we owe to ourselves, it does not directly make the economy poorer (and paying it off doesn’t make us richer). True, debt can pose a threat to financial stability — but the situation is not improved if efforts to reduce debt end up pushing the economy into deflation and depression.

Which brings us to current events, for there is a direct connection between the overall failure to deleverage and the emerging political crisis in Europe.

Why public debt is not like credit card debt

Most important, this credit-card metaphor is a totally false analogy because, unlike a consumer on a spending spree who later has to pay the piper, government’s borrowing strategy directly affects economic growth.

When deficit spending helps increase growth, that, in turn, makes the debt less burdensome. The Federal Reserve also has the power to buy public debt ‑ a prerogative not available to consumers.

America Is Not Drowning In Debt - Business Insider

"America is drowning in debt!"

It's a phrase you hear constantly regarding the Federal government's debt, household debt, corporate debt, financial debt, etc. Almost nobody challenges the premise.

Capital Economics is out with a fantastic new report titled simply "America is not drowning in debt," which methodically debunks the myth.

ETC., ETC., ETC.


So in essence, we need to stop trying to relate the national debt (cumulative deficits) or deficits (less taken in than spent yearly)...with what we're most familiar with.

Not to say that the difference is infinite or cannot be broken, but it's not in the way that most of us can relate to... in our own economic situation.

Originally Posted by Guest

The problem for most people in understanding why debt doesn't affect a country like it would an individual, lies in the fact that public debt...is not the same as yours and my debt.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/09/o...ands-debt.html





Why public debt is not like credit card debt




America Is Not Drowning In Debt - Business Insider




ETC., ETC., ETC.


So in essence, we need to stop trying to relate the national debt (cumulative deficits) or deficits (less taken in than spent yearly)...with what we're most familiar with.

Not to say that the difference is infinite or cannot be broken, but it's not in the way that most of us can relate to... in our own economic situation.

ALL of that is bullsh!t. It's NOT the same because we'll NEVER pay it back? THAT is an explanation? We pay $600,000,000,000m $600 billion a year in interest, we PRINT that money because we don't have it. Your CD pays 1% when it SHOULD pay 6%...why? Because your government can't afford to pay OVER $1 trillion a year in interest payments.

We're getting to the point where we're not going to be able to make the minimum interest payment without borrowing a LOT more. Too much more. We already borrow about 25% of the federal budget...you think borrowing 50% is ok?

It's ALL moot anyway IF the minority majority keeps growing, we'll be 3rd world in 30 years and none of this will matter. There will be nobody left to care or run things...the white people will be gone. Blacks and Hispanics don't care about this stuff. You NEVER hear black or Hispanic people talking about, discussing finance and politics. Because they're NOT us.

Originally Posted by Racist Boy Baldwin

ALL of that is bullsh!t. It's NOT the same because we'll NEVER pay it back? THAT is an explanation? We pay $600,000,000,000m $600 billion a year in interest, we PRINT that money because we don't have it. Your CD pays 1% when it SHOULD pay 6%...why? Because your government can't afford to pay OVER $1 trillion a year in interest payments.

We're getting to the point where we're not going to be able to make the minimum interest payment without borrowing a LOT more. Too much more. We already borrow about 25% of the federal budget...you think borrowing 50% is ok?

It's ALL moot anyway IF the minority majority keeps growing, we'll be 3rd world in 30 years and none of this will matter. There will be nobody left to care or run things...the white people will be gone. Blacks and Hispanics don't care about this stuff. You NEVER hear black or Hispanic people talking about, discussing finance and politics. Because they're NOT us.

For just one moment, try to act on logic, instead of your emotional hatred of minorities...and read my links so you can educate yourself (if that's even possible).

What happens when a government sharply curtails its spending?

Maybe that's too tough of a question for you, so I'll simplify it...what does a government spend its money on?

I'll even give you the answer.

Goods, services, materials and wages.

So even you, with limited cognitive reasoning skills, should be able to figure out...what happens when those expenses are sharply reduced.

The 'deficit' is simply the yearly difference when what the government takes in...is less than what it spends.

What it 'takes in,' is mostly dependent on the economy (two-thirds of which is consumer spending)...and having people/companies working to add to the coffers.

By cutting too deeply, all of a sudden you no longer have the same amount coming in (less people working/less goods/less services/less materials)...so the 'cuts' are not linear.

As I said previously however, that doesn't mean you can do it in an uncontrolled manner...as that is unsustainable.

But the fact that we are STILL the economic engine of the world, is pretty clear evidence that our nation's economics/debts/deficits...ARE NOT the same as an individual's.

Those that keep trying to apply the same principles of a nations economics to the more simplistic metrics of personal debt...are totally missing the boat.

Originally Posted by Guest

For just one moment, try to act on logic, instead of your emotional hatred of minorities...and read my links so you can educate yourself (if that's even possible).

What happens when a government sharply curtails its spending?

Maybe that's too tough of a question for you, so I'll simplify it...what does a government spend its money on?

I'll even give you the answer.

Goods, services, materials and wages.

So even you, with limited cognitive reasoning skills, should be able to figure out...what happens when those expenses are sharply reduced.

The 'deficit' is simply the yearly difference when what the government takes in...is less than what it spends.

What it 'takes in,' is mostly dependent on the economy (two-thirds of which is consumer spending)...and having people/companies working to add to the coffers.

By cutting too deeply, all of a sudden you no longer have the same amount coming in (less people working/less goods/less services/less materials)...so the 'cuts' are not linear.

As I said previously however, that doesn't mean you can do it in an uncontrolled manner...as that is unsustainable.

But the fact that we are STILL the economic engine of the world, is pretty clear evidence that our nation's economics/debts/deficits...ARE NOT the same as an individual's.

Those that keep trying to apply the same principles of a nations economics to the more simplistic metrics of personal debt...are totally missing the boat.

You KNOW nothing...WHY? Because you get your information from those who are controlling things.

We are caught up in a spending/debt spiral. We CAN'T stop spending because half the "economy" DEPENDS on government spending. That's my point...the government has blown bubbles and if it stops infusing cash, they pop. We also CAN'T afford to keep spending.

And WHY does the economy DEPEND so heavily on government spending? THAT is the problem. EVERYBODY depends on the government and that shouldn't be.

And that deficit along with the debt, keeps growing and growing...the ONLY reason we get away with it is we have a military in 170 countries keeping their boot on everyone's neck. How long do you think the deficit can keep growing? Forever? $100 trillion? $1 googolplex? They PRINT money to pay the interest. It WILL end, it's NOT sustainable.

So you DO agree with me, it can't go on...so why are you arguing with me? Over some stupid details?

We are NOT the "economic engine"...we are the FINANCIAL engine. Our "economy" is consumers buying crap made in China and other countries...services...consumables.

National debt is ONLY different from consumer debt in that sovereigns can print money to "pay" the bills...so their day of reckoning comes later.

No...you are missing the boat (?). More like missing the point. The "boat" is nothing but greedy men running a ponzi that makes them all very wealthy. Our economy/financial system is no different than a religion...it all runs on faith...nothing more.

BTW...I don't "hate" minorities...I hate what they do...their actions. You tell me how you support half the country receiving some benefit from the government. Whites are 49% now. The minority CAN'T support the majority. Only 1/3 the population is in the workforce.

There is NO minority majority country that could be considered a successful country. That is where we are heading. We have less than 30 year to REALLY do something to save America...Normal Rockwell's America...MY America. I really don't care WHAT blacks and Hispanics want...they've NEVER created a successful modern civilization.

Originally Posted by Guest

The problem for most people in understanding why debt doesn't affect a country like it would an individual, lies in the fact that public debt...is not the same as yours and my debt.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/09/o...ands-debt.html





Why public debt is not like credit card debt




America Is Not Drowning In Debt - Business Insider




ETC., ETC., ETC.


So in essence, we need to stop trying to relate the national debt (cumulative deficits) or deficits (less taken in than spent yearly)...with what we're most familiar with.

Not to say that the difference is infinite or cannot be broken, but it's not in the way that most of us can relate to... in our own economic situation.

You have quoted pieces that support your point of view that debt doesn't matter but if you were objective you could find economists that support the exact opposite views. I hear deficiet spending stimulates the economy and agree with that to a point, but it depends on the "investment".. But borrowing, printing, whatever you call it to support spending that has no real potential of return has to catch up with us. Take a cruise missle that I believe cost 1 million apiece to make. You borrow that million and flatten a clay building in Iraq, multiply that by 1000 missles and you have a billion borrowed dollars invested. Using your logic why could we not just open up all the AMT machines across the country and let everyone one take what they need, using honor system of course. It would not hurt anything and stimulate the economy. Maybe

Originally Posted by Guest

You have quoted pieces that support your point of view that debt doesn't matter but if you were objective you could find economists that support the exact opposite views. I hear deficiet spending stimulates the economy and agree with that to a point, but it depends on the "investment".. But borrowing, printing, whatever you call it to support spending that has no real potential of return has to catch up with us. Take a cruise missle that I believe cost 1 million apiece to make. You borrow that million and flatten a clay building in Iraq, multiply that by 1000 missles and you have a billion borrowed dollars invested. Using your logic why could we not just open up all the AMT machines across the country and let everyone one take what they need, using honor system of course. It would not hurt anything and stimulate the economy. Maybe

Because she is dishonest.

It CAN if it's short term...but this has been going on for 10 years now. Borrowing/spending a $ trillion a year. Can you comprehend WHAT a $ trillion looks like? Those are pallets of $100 bills.



How high is a stack of a trillion $1 bills? Almost 80,000 MILES



It IS catching up...the interest rate is 1% because the government is keeping interest rates down so they can pay the $600 billion instead of $1 trillion a year in interest payments. 40% of world sovereign debt has NEGATIVE interest rates. THAT is how bad things REALLY are.

negative interest rate bonds - Google Search

What do we spend it on? A $ trillion on crap...welfare. We pay people and send them to the doctor...so they can continue to be a burden. From cradle to grave...we take care of them. Democrats...raising voters like cattle. There is NO return on investment with welfare. For every "success", there are a million failures.

Some countries ARE...they're talking about giving EVERY Swiss citizen a minimum income...Finland too.

countries paying citizens - Google Search

Originally Posted by Guest

You have quoted pieces that support your point of view...

Of course I have.

That's what intelligent people do in a debate.

Feel free to add your own.

Originally Posted by Guest

that debt doesn't matter but if you were objective you could find economists that support the exact opposite views.

Very true.

If you will note however, my point was aimed at those who would try to simplify our nation's deficit's/debt...to that of an individual's debt.

They are not the same.

Originally Posted by Guest

I hear deficiet spending stimulates the economy and agree with that to a point, but it depends on the "investment".. But borrowing, printing, whatever you call it to support spending that has no real potential of return has to catch up with us. Take a cruise missle that I believe cost 1 million apiece to make. You borrow that million and flatten a clay building in Iraq, multiply that by 1000 missles and you have a billion borrowed dollars invested. Using your logic why could we not just open up all the AMT machines across the country and let everyone one take what they need, using honor system of course. It would not hurt anything and stimulate the economy. Maybe

Obviously, some spending gives greater returns than others.

While your example of the cruise missile is admittedly on the low end of ROI's, someone had to supply the materials and build it...didn't they?

I doubt the materials were donated and the labor free...so that money WAS recirculated through the economy.



Deepest Sincere Wishes:

Originally Posted by Guest

Of course I have.

That's what intelligent people do in a debate.

Feel free to add your own.




Very true.

If you will note however, my point was aimed at those who would try to simplify our nation's deficit's/debt...to that of an individual's debt.

They are not the same.





Obviously, some spending gives greater returns than others.

While your example of the cruise missile is admittedly on the low end of ROI's, someone had to supply the materials and build it...didn't they?

I doubt the materials were donated and the labor free...so that money WAS recirculated through the economy.



Deepest Sincere Wishes:

Would opening up ATM's for free money be ok, you didn't say. That would certainly recirculate money through economy, would it not/

Originally Posted by Guest

Would opening up ATM's for free money be ok, you didn't say. That would certainly recirculate money through economy, would it not/

I'm sorry, but the question was so ignorant and ridiculous...as to warrant a response.

But for the record, doing that without a purpose (whether it be to keep the poor from starving or building infrastructure)...is just too silly to take seriously and is obviously meant to obfuscate and is a logical fallacy.



Deepest Sincere Wishes:

Originally Posted by Guest

I'm sorry, but the question was so ignorant and ridiculous...as to warrant a response.

But for the record, doing that without a purpose (whether it be to keep the poor from starving or building infrastructure)...is just too silly to take seriously and is obviously meant to obfuscate and is a logical fallacy.



Deepest Sincere Wishes:

So is it really an ignorant question asked to someone who feels borrowing a million dollars to blow up a clay building in the Middle East with a cruise missile helps the US economy? What does that money do that my ATM suggestion not do. Me thinks you might be a little confused about ignorance.

Deepest Sincere Wishes back at you.

Originally Posted by Guest

Would opening up ATM's for free money be ok, you didn't say. That would certainly recirculate money through economy, would it not/

Originally Posted by Guest

I'm sorry, but the question was so ignorant and ridiculous...as to warrant a response.

But for the record, doing that without a purpose (whether it be to keep the poor from starving or building infrastructure)...is just too silly to take seriously and is obviously meant to obfuscate and is a logical fallacy.



Deepest Sincere Wishes:

Explain Finland and Switzerland...they want to "open an ATM with free money"...about $1,000 a month...for every citizen. THEY don't think it's "ignorant and ridiculous". A guaranteed minimum income for everyone.

Since everyone is white, they can manage their own money and the government can get out of the welfare business altogether.

If we did it here in America...the minorities would blow it all in a week and STILL need public housing and food stamps. Blacks cannot manage themselves...they NEED direction. It's unfortunate, it sucks to be them...but it's true.

Originally Posted by Guest

Explain Finland and Switzerland...they want to "open an ATM with free money"...about $1,000 a month...for every citizen. THEY don't think it's "ignorant and ridiculous". A guaranteed minimum income for everyone.

Since everyone is white, they can manage their own money and the government can get out of the welfare business altogether.

If we did it here in America...the minorities would blow it all in a week and STILL need public housing and food stamps. Blacks cannot manage themselves...they NEED direction. It's unfortunate, it sucks to be them...but it's true.

That goes for most Americans, not just the minorities. Look at those that have won the lottery, as an example. I am not saying you are wrong, only that you are focusing on just a small portion of the problem and not seeing the whole picture.