Ukraine

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  #1  
Old 02-06-2015, 07:11 PM
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Default Ukraine

I am interested in how folks feel about our involvement or lack thereof in Ukraine.

I realize this will be taken as disrespect, but in 2012, the President mocked Romney and a few posters on this board did the same when discussing Russia.

Well, Romney s words have come true.

Now, Putin, in my opinion is really pushing the envelope and is really surprising me with his defiance. The sanctions have hurt Russia for sure and he persists and actually is getting more agressive.

This situation, ie. and invasion of another country, cannot be tolerated. What we do, I am not sure. I hope we can stop his agression with the minimal military effort but we cant be backed down once again.

There is merit to the arguement about ignoring a lot of this stuff since it does not, at this time, present a threat to the US, but that line of thinking has not served anyone very well in the past, and our job is to ensure our shores stay safe.
  #2  
Old 02-07-2015, 05:31 PM
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While everyone seems to be posting about respecting our President, giving vote results from a few years ago, etc. nobody seems to be talking about any real issues.

Is this what "politics" is today ? Do we ignore what is happening and simply wait to be told what to think by our party ? Do we all feel that if Democrat, they have ALL the answers, and if Republicans they have ALL the answers ? Do we all get offended if someone does not agree with whatever your party says you are for ?

Let me tell you....2016 and 2020 and on will be decided on WHO the candidates are, what the issues are at that time and how the world is being handled.


Now, I just read this and thought it interesting relative to Ukraine.....

"It was a day of bluster and speeches but also paralysis over how to bring the bloodshed in eastern Ukraine to an end.
On one side, hawks in Washington favour supplying advanced weapons to Ukraines government in Kiev. On the other, cautious European leaders warned it is easier to provoke Vladimir Putin than to scare him.
I am firmly convinced this conflict cannot be solved with military means, said Angela Merkel, the German chancellor at the Munich Security Conference.
Mrs Merkel, who is the only major Western leader to have a working relationship with Mr Putin, said a flow of American arms to Ukraine would not intimidate the Russian leader.
I cannot imagine any situation in which improved equipment for the Ukrainian army leads to President Putin being so impressed that he believes he will lose militarily, she said. I have to put it that bluntly.


Ukraine crisis: Do not try to scare Putin, warns Merkel - Telegraph
  #3  
Old 02-07-2015, 09:38 PM
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"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue.

"I was able to get a sense of his soul."

Let me think who said this about Putin. Hmmmm.
  #4  
Old 02-07-2015, 11:24 PM
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Test
  #5  
Old 02-08-2015, 12:37 PM
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There are politicians and generals who believe, perhaps honestly, that the answer to every issue is more bombs. They would have bombed Iran, North Korea, etc. How well in recent history has the big stick worked? Which military won in Vietnam? How well have the Israeli assaults won the peace with the Palestinians? Did our overwhelming use of force make things better in Iraq or Libya? And it is not just recent. Did England's overwhelming military superiority work in 1776? It is the strength of the belief in the people being bombed to withstand and recruit and continue that is so important. Every Israeli incursion creates a brief pause, and many more Palestinians willing to die.

The Ukraine is not important. I don't care if it is independent or part of Russia. Do your really care? What is the history of the area? What do the citizens there want? What are the policies of the Ukrainian government that might make it important to give them support other than they are not Putin? Is it a nation with a strong commitment to civil liberties, minority rights, protection of the environment or is a nation run by a petty dictator who is vicious in his own policies? How much different will the world be if eastern Ukraine is annexed into Russia? Is it worth any American lives or any American dollars?
  #6  
Old 02-08-2015, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guest View Post
There are politicians and generals who believe, perhaps honestly, that the answer to every issue is more bombs. They would have bombed Iran, North Korea, etc. How well in recent history has the big stick worked? Which military won in Vietnam? How well have the Israeli assaults won the peace with the Palestinians? Did our overwhelming use of force make things better in Iraq or Libya? And it is not just recent. Did England's overwhelming military superiority work in 1776? It is the strength of the belief in the people being bombed to withstand and recruit and continue that is so important. Every Israeli incursion creates a brief pause, and many more Palestinians willing to die.

The Ukraine is not important. I don't care if it is independent or part of Russia. Do your really care? What is the history of the area? What do the citizens there want? What are the policies of the Ukrainian government that might make it important to give them support other than they are not Putin? Is it a nation with a strong commitment to civil liberties, minority rights, protection of the environment or is a nation run by a petty dictator who is vicious in his own policies? How much different will the world be if eastern Ukraine is annexed into Russia? Is it worth any American lives or any American dollars?
While ideally, I would like to agree with your assertions, but they..your assertions, are based on isolationism. I do not think we are in a position to do that. If you have not been reading about Ukraine, will not attempt to refresh you but consider it important enough to our President that he called Putin on it, warned Putin and put enough restrictions on trade to really pressure Putin.

I understand the concern you express, but suddenly, our country seems to want to ignore any trouble in the world. We should be learning that it will not pay for the USA to do that. This country is the strongest military might in the world and countries are now lining up to take advantage of our "isolationism" or whatever you want to call it.

We care about people dying.....we turned our back in Syria for 3 years, even though we spoke big, but did nothing. That death toll now exceeds 200,000, many small children shot down in the streets. Now, that vacuum has been filled by ISIL. Same in Iraq. Turkey is spiraling. We are, and I pray with some success negotiating with Iran, who still to this day proclaims death to Israel yet we still negoitiate with them.

You can only close your eyes so many times.....but

As for Ukraine.....

"MUNICH (Reuters) - The leaders of Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France agreed to meet in Belarus on Wednesday to try to broker a peace deal for Ukraine amid escalating violence there and signs of cracks in the transatlantic consensus on confronting Vladimir Putin.
The four leaders held a call on Sunday, two days after Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande traveled to Moscow for talks with Putin that produced no breakthrough in the nearly year-long conflict that has claimed over 5,000 lives.


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/leaders-sc...7--sector.html

To more directly answer your question...it is a country, a free independent country that has been invaded.
  #7  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:11 AM
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I really didn't buy into the domino theory when I was young. But I have no doubt that if Putin had his way, Russia would become the USSR again. Getting Ukraine and ts oil is a huge step in this direction. Maybe the right way to go would be to hold an election in the corner of the Ukraine that wants to be Russian. If at least sixty percent vote for Russia, then let the border change. It surely would beat a Northern Ireland occurring.

I do believe Ms. Merkel is correct in saying warfare is not the answer here. I truly hope a peaceful resolution can be found. Sadly, it will have to be a resolution that allows Putin to save face.
  #8  
Old 02-09-2015, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guest View Post
I really didn't buy into the domino theory when I was young. But I have no doubt that if Putin had his way, Russia would become the USSR again. Getting Ukraine and ts oil is a huge step in this direction. Maybe the right way to go would be to hold an election in the corner of the Ukraine that wants to be Russian. If at least sixty percent vote for Russia, then let the border change. It surely would beat a Northern Ireland occurring.

I do believe Ms. Merkel is correct in saying warfare is not the answer here. I truly hope a peaceful resolution can be found. Sadly, it will have to be a resolution that allows Putin to save face.
Ukraine is another post war made up country. Check the Wikipedia page for the history of Ukraine and you will see that it was never in existence in the form we know it until after WW1 when several diverse cultures were cobbled together as a Soviet state. There were areas that were overwhelmingly ethnic Russian but calling the area Ukraine meant nothing as it was just all part of the USSR. So if you live in New York and administratively they move your town to Pennsylvania, so what you are still an American. Similarly when this Russian area was made part of Ukraine province the Russians were fine with it as it was all USSR. Only when Ukraine broke away with the dissolution of the USSR did these ethnic Russians find themselves within a nation dominated by a different ethnic group and they have as a minority group wanted out. Both Khrushchev and Brezhnev who led the USSR were from the Russian area of Ukraine but certainly would consider themselves Russians not Ukrainian in the present environment.

So the comment that this is an independent nation is correct but misleading. It is in fact a political structure that threw together ethnic groups that have fought each other for power for centuries. A free election in eastern Ukraine would absolutely result in that area choosing to align with Russia.

This is not about Putin wanting Ukraine's oil. Ukraine is not an oil producer but is in fact dependent on mostly Russia for its oil and natural gas.
  #9  
Old 02-09-2015, 10:29 AM
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You're right, I misspoke. Ukraine itself does not have oil. It is, however, a major transportation hub for oil for Russia.

Whether the Ukraine was an independent nation in the past is irrelevant. It is one now. While I doubt Putin would go for it since he wants all of the Ukraine, I still think an election of the region wanting to be part of Russia is the most sane approach.
  #10  
Old 02-09-2015, 02:10 PM
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And the beat goes on....

"Vladimir Putin will not be spoken to in the language of ultimatums, a Russian radio station has quoted the Kremlin as saying.

Reports suggest German Chancellor Angela Merkel had given him until Wednesday to agree a peace plan over Ukraine or face new sanctions.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told Govorit Moskva radio: "Nobody has ever talked to the president in the tone of an ultimatum - and could not do so even if they wanted to."

The warning came as Mrs Merkel met US President Barack Obama to discuss the peace initiative, while the White House considers supplying weapons to Kiev.


Kremlin: Don't Issue Ultimatums To Putin
  #11  
Old 02-09-2015, 04:19 PM
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If the US were occupying land in a neighboring nation, holding it by military force without the consent of that neighboring nation which demanded that the US get its army out and return the occupied territory to the host country. .. Then got regional and international allies to all agree to potentially arm that host country to force us out, would you support our departure? How about if there were not any armed allies out there, just the neighboring nation wants us out to reclaim their territory as a sovereign nation that has existed for decades. Should we leave? Are we the bully, the aggressor, the usurper for refusing to leave? We've got it and we're not giving it back and there are no local citizens who want us there unlike eastern Ukraine.

The world is complex and bombs and guns is the wrong answer most of the time.

Guantanamo
  #12  
Old 02-09-2015, 08:42 PM
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WEAPONS OR NO WEAPONS ???????


"President Barack Obama says the US is studying the option of supplying lethal defensive arms to Ukraine if diplomacy fails to end the crisis in the east.

Russia had violated "every commitment" made in the failing Minsk agreement, he added, after talks with the German chancellor on a new peace deal.

Mr Obama has come under pressure from senior US officials to supply arms, despite objections from Angela Merkel.

Russia denies accusations of sending troops and supplying the rebels.

The latest diplomatic efforts come amid renewed fighting between the pro-Russia rebels and Ukrainian government troops, with fighting centred around the strategic railway hub of Debaltseve.


BBC News - Ukraine conflict: US 'may supply arms to Ukraine'
  #13  
Old 02-10-2015, 09:48 PM
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I was wondering if Eric Snowden may have provided intelligence that benefited Putin's decision regarding the Ukraine. Wars cost money. Anyone think that $$$ from the Winter Olympics may have helped him going after Crimea and the Ukraine? As I recall the Wall in Germany came down and the Cold War ended (briefly) because Russia was going broke trying to maintain ever growing defense spending.
  #14  
Old 02-11-2015, 08:33 PM
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Talks going on now into the early morning hours. Hearing some positive vibes but shelling and dying still going on.

Now in the last 24 hours we have...

"Putins proxies have taken hundreds of square miles of Ukraine since the last peace deal. Top Democrats want their president to give the Ukrainians the weapons to fight back.

Hawkish Republicans have leaned on President Obama for the better part of a year to give weapons to Ukraine as it battles Russian-backed separatists. Now its members of Obamas own partyboth within Congress and from members of his own administrationthat are calling on the president to arm the Ukrainians, before they lose even more territory to the Kremlins proxies."


Democrats Are Now Pushing Obama to Give Guns to Ukraine - The Daily Beast
  #15  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:58 PM
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THANKFULLY.....

"MINSK, Belarus (AP) Guns would fall silent, heavy weapons would pull back from the front and Ukraine would trade broad autonomy for the east to get back control of its Russian border by the end of 2015 under a peace deal hammered out Thursday in all-night negotiations between Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany.

Marathon talks produce Ukraine peace deal; cease-fire Sunday

AT LEAST FOR NOW....

"The deal was full of potential pitfalls that could derail its implementation, however. In announcing the plan, Russia and Ukraine differed over what exactly they had agreed to in the marathon 16-hour talks, including the status of Debaltseve, a key town now under rebel siege."
 

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