Government health care if you will, will fail the general American public. I had some folks in at my hotel last year and told me of the stories in Canada. The man told me and he was 83 of having to wait 12 + months for haert surgery. If he would have waited he would have died but he came to the good old USA paid out of pocket and was fine. This is what will happen here you will see alot of private hospitals open and if you can pay you will play. This government health care will not fly.Any time thegovernment (any government) gets to involved with the day to day of the people it goes wrong. And I am not knocking any party or president I could but I not.

Originally Posted by RichieLion

If England's numbers are better I'd be willing to wager that the numbers are grossly flawed and skewed to promote this socialist agenda.

Read the documents I linked and not just the stories from neglected sick and injured. The health law in England calls for patients to be see within 18 weeks and they fail to hold to that standard at a failure rate of 26%. That means 1 out of 4 patients wait longer than 18 weeks for an appointment.

Screw everything else. That's all I need to know.

Why am I not surprised?

A number of years ago my son and I were both interested in Lasik surgery. In the States at the time they were charging $2,400 for each eye and they would do one eye at a time with a minimum of 6 weeks in between. That's $4,800 total.

We went to Mississauga, Ontario for the procedures at a cost of $1,000 for both eyes done on the same day. That's $1,000 total. The waiting room was filled with U.S. citizens. It was well worth traveling to Canada for the follow-up visits at that price. The expertise was way ahead of what was offered in the States. The machine they used for mapping the eye in Canada wasn't even approved in the U.S. yet. As it turned out, I had Marginal Degeneration (thin around the edges) and they couldn't map my eyes to the degree of accuracy that was needed. They told me that the machine to do it was already available in Europe and that they'd have it within the year. They said that it wouldn't be approved in the U.S. for at least another 5 years.

Xavier

Originally Posted by DDoug

Government health care if you will, will fail the general American public. I had some folks in at my hotel last year and told me of the stories in Canada. The man told me and he was 83 of having to wait 12 + months for haert surgery. If he would have waited he would have died but he came to the good old USA paid out of pocket and was fine. This is what will happen here you will see alot of private hospitals open and if you can pay you will play. This government health care will not fly.Any time thegovernment (any government) gets to involved with the day to day of the people it goes wrong. And I am not knocking any party or president I could but I not.

... and I'm assuming that you are basing that opinion on the stellar record of health care and it's cost here in the United States? Well, at least you aren't blaming any party or President even though you feel that you certainly could. I thank you for that.

Xavier

Originally Posted by RichieLion

If England's numbers are better I'd be willing to wager that the numbers are grossly flawed and skewed to promote this socialist agenda.

Read the documents I linked and not just the stories from neglected sick and injured. The health law in England calls for patients to be see within 18 weeks and they fail to hold to that standard at a failure rate of 26%. That means 1 out of 4 patients wait longer than 18 weeks for an appointment.

Screw everything else. That's all I need to know.

Wow, that song "Still the Same" is running through my mind... Richie, do you even know anyone that actually lives in England??? We know several and what you're saying is completely untrue.

When are all the right-wingnuts going to stop strutting around with their chests puffed out, chirping about our excellence and start dealing with the real issues at hand.

Education, Health Care, Environment... we are wayyyyyy down the list in so many important areas. Just because the right-wing yells louder, doesn't make them right. I'm sick and tired of skewed numbers, lies spouted out as facts, closed minds, and people just simply living in denial! Now stop pounding your chest and get to work!

Well, I don't visit often anymore folks, but as always, it's been a slice....

Originally Posted by chelsea24

Wow, that song "Still the Same" is running through my mind... Richie, do you even know anyone that actually lives in England??? We know several and what you're saying is completely untrue.

When are all the right-wingnuts going to stop strutting around with their chests puffed out, chirping about our excellence and start dealing with the real issues at hand.

Education, Health Care, Environment... we are wayyyyyy down the list in so many important areas. Just because the right-wing yells louder, doesn't make them right. I'm sick and tired of skewed numbers, lies spouted out as facts, closed minds, and people just simply living in denial! Now stop pounding your chest and get to work!

Well, I don't visit often anymore folks, but as always, it's been a slice....

Gee, where have you been? Good to see you come out of the dark. The only one yelling here is you. I "spouted" no numbers. I've read and linked articles written by people from England who live with socialized medicine. I've linked the governments own guidelines. They aren't lies just because you're mad at me for revealing them. The only yelling is from the left who cannot tolerate for their bubble to burst and their icons to be discredited.

The fact that I know I'm right is that you call people names and try to diminish out of the frustration of having to defend the indefensible.

Originally Posted by Xavier

A number of years ago my son and I were both interested in Lasik surgery. In the States at the time they were charging $2,400 for each eye and they would do one eye at a time with a minimum of 6 weeks in between. That's $4,800 total.

We went to Mississauga, Ontario for the procedures at a cost of $1,000 for both eyes done on the same day. That's $1,000 total. The waiting room was filled with U.S. citizens. It was well worth traveling to Canada for the follow-up visits at that price. The expertise was way ahead of what was offered in the States. The machine they used for mapping the eye in Canada wasn't even approved in the U.S. yet. As it turned out, I had Marginal Degeneration (thin around the edges) and they couldn't map my eyes to the degree of accuracy that was needed. They told me that the machine to do it was already available in Europe and that they'd have it within the year. They said that it wouldn't be approved in the U.S. for at least another 5 years.

Xavier

Gee, you relate stories of American's going to Canada for elective procedures and other relate stories of Canadians coming to America because they don't want to die waiting for treatment. Interesting, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Villages Kahuna

Why am I not surprised?

I choose life.

Originally Posted by RichieLion

Gee, where have you been? Good to see you come out of the dark. The only one yelling here is you. I "spouted" no numbers. I've read and linked articles written by people from England who live with socialized medicine. I've linked the governments own guidelines. They aren't lies just because you're mad at me for revealing them. The only yelling is from the left who cannot tolerate for their bubble to burst and their icons to be discredited.

The fact that I know I'm right is that you call people names and try to diminish out of the frustration of having to defend the indefensible.

is not a river in Egypt Richie! Me? Yelling??? You really are clueless. On the contrary -- I'm amused! You're a very amusing fellow.

The day the right-wing nuts bubble burst, was the day Bin Laden was eliminated. Good Luck in 2012.

Originally Posted by chelsea24

is not a river in Egypt Richie! Me? Yelling??? You really are clueless. On the contrary -- I'm amused! You're a very amusing fellow.

The day the right-wing nuts bubble burst, was the day Bin Laden was eliminated. Good Luck in 2012.

Oh gee; if you say so. I can say you're yelling just as easily as you falsely accuse me with the purpose to diminish what I say. It's the same reason you call people names. I don't have to defend. You ruin your own arguments.

Originally Posted by RichieLion

Gee, you relate stories of American's going to Canada for elective procedures and other relate stories of Canadians coming to America because they don't want to die waiting for treatment. Interesting, isn't it?

Someone I knew, knew someone who knew a guy from Canada who was 83 ... I was just giving a real life example of what I have experienced personally. I'd listen to you if you wanted to tell of your experiences on the ...

See, that's self control! Have a great day!

Xavier

Richie: That's all you need to know? Why not look a little further. If I had to pick ONE statistic for "all I need to know", I would look at life expectancy.

According to THAT metric, Japan is #1, France is #10, Canada is #11, The UK is tied for 20th. The US? TIED FOR 36TH WITH *CUBA*.

Now, maybe you wouldn't like the source because it's from the UN. How about from the CIA World Fact Book?

With *them*, Monaco is #1, Japan #5, Canada is 9th, France 10th, UK 36th and the US is *50th*. (For reference, Cuba is 55th in this ranking, 0.92 years less average life expectancy than the US).

The CIA Fact Book also has many more 'political entities' and is not restricted to "UN Member States" - although both lists separate the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico from the United States in the stats. ...and both of those territories scored higher than the US in both lists.

RomneyCare was the prototype for ObamaCare. While Romney Care was engineered to cut health insurance costs it did so only by reducing health care causing many docotrs to flee the State. This left many patients without a doctor, thus creating a need to find another doctor which prolonged their wait for an appointment and all that follows.

Team Obama used an unfair bias against insurance companies making them the villians so as to push his agenda. I am not saying that insurance companies are saintly but would ask people to stay open and balanced about the issues. The profit numbers you cite just don't make sense. I am not saying you are wrong but whomever is reporting those numbers is playing games. There is more to this story. RomneyCare is a disaster and one Romney won't admit to and a big reason he will never get the nomination. He would have been better off to have admitted it was a test that failed and he learned from it but he didn't do that and now will suffer for it. It is the main reason I won't consider him. People who favor interstate competition have it right. This model will make health insurance more affordable.

What is probably unfortunate is that Obama and his acolytes never bothered to study romneyCare disasterous results and hence "those that ignore history are deemed to repeat it"

Originally Posted by djplong

Richie: That's all you need to know? Why not look a little further. If I had to pick ONE statistic for "all I need to know", I would look at life expectancy.

According to THAT metric, Japan is #1, France is #10, Canada is #11, The UK is tied for 20th. The US? TIED FOR 36TH WITH *CUBA*.

Now, maybe you wouldn't like the source because it's from the UN. How about from the CIA World Fact Book?

With *them*, Monaco is #1, Japan #5, Canada is 9th, France 10th, UK 36th and the US is *50th*. (For reference, Cuba is 55th in this ranking, 0.92 years less average life expectancy than the US).

The CIA Fact Book also has many more 'political entities' and is not restricted to "UN Member States" - although both lists separate the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico from the United States in the stats. ...and both of those territories scored higher than the US in both lists.

Uh oh. Better get ready with another "don't bother me with those left wing skewed statistics designed to make conservative ideas look bad" responses from Richie.

Originally Posted by rubicon

...I am not saying that insurance companies are saintly but would ask people to stay open and balanced about the issues. The profit numbers you cite just don't make sense. I am not saying you are wrong but whomever is reporting those numbers is playing games....

There really aren't any "games" to be played. These are all highly regulated public companies subject to SEC regulations and FASB accounting standards. When the financial media report profits and profit comparisons, you can pretty much count on the reports as accurate.

On the subject of staying "open and balanced", the Paul Ryan proposal if accepted in it's entirety, would pretty much eliminate Medicare as we currently know it. Simply put, the Ryan plan would essentially give Americans of Medicare age a chit worth about $15,000 to buy healthcare insurance. If the cost of such insurance exceeds that amount, the participants would be on their own to pay for their own healthcare or whatever premiums the insurance companies choose to charge.

On it's face, would you accept the assumption that "market forces" would maintain or reduce healthcare costs, which is the fundamental presumption of the Ryan Plan? There's not much doubt that healthcare costs MUST be reduced and that ObamaCare doesn't do much if anything to accomplish that.

So for all you Medicare participants out there, are you willing to give up your Medicare coverage and place the kind of health insurance you will be able to afford in the hands of the big insurance companies? It's a simple question that calls for an equally simple answer.