the government is not allowed to mandate a religion nor is it allowed to interfere with the practice thereof.

There are limits on the practice of religion....unlike the 50s, when I had to read from the bible, school prayer is banned. The 10 commandments in a courtroom....banned.

Yea, and the country is better place now.chilout

villagegolfer, by a better place you mean the rise is high school drop outs, the increase in teenage PG, the easy of obtaining drugs, the high debt ratio to GDP of the US of A, the drop in the Stock Market. I guess that you are right, we are in a better place.

You did not spot the sarcasm?:shrug:

Cologal, you're just be silly now, I'm guessing.

Of course, CMANN is trying to tell you that you have, by Constitutional Right, the freedom of practicing or not practicing any religion you choose; but you do not have a Constitutional Right to be protected from being exposed to someone else practicing their religion.

Just more raw meat so we can get down to the fun stuff of insulting each other
 

This was written to a friend who asked me to explain my spiritual background. As someone who grew up with both survivors from the death camps, members of the Chicago Outfit, and a mother who was the child of sharecroppers in West Virginia - I had fairly unusual cultural background.

So here is the raw meat kids. Enjoy!

I am an agnostic. People often confuse this with being wishy-washy or indifferent or purposefully not informed. I am none of these – though, for social comfort, I am happy to hide behind this myth.

You asked me about god and I will try to explain. I am not trying to ask you to agree with me. Truly, I do not know if I am right; however, the more I think about god (which I see as something akin to the great clockmaker) – the more humble I am.

First, what we think of as religion is a tribal myth designed to explain what was once – the unexplainable – and also is a tribal need to separate “us” from “them.”

As a specie, humans have a need (along with many mammals) to survive and thrive by creating artificial groups that are easier to provide genetic control.

When a male lion kills or is able to cast off the previous alpha male, his next task is to kill the cubs of the previous alpha male. It ensures the primacy of his DNA.

Don’t get me wrong – the lion isn’t thinking “DNA” – this is something done instinctually. Despite our ability to reason, we still operate on a degree of instinctual programming. After all, we are just another mammal.

In terms of organized religion…

If you are a Christian, all you have to do is study the actual history of Jesus and the early church to see that you are studying a non-violent Jew, responding to outside oppression, who inspired and provided hope and a meaningful message to those without power.

The development of the early church and the codifying of the gospels is the story of binding people together to deal with Roman oppression and (once co-opted) to ensure the extension of that same Roman power.

Other religions’ have a similar history.

Most of them are not inherently evil…but, like all tribalism, they are often the cause of human conflict and the justification for bad behavior… assuming you consider jihad and the inquisition bad behavior.

That does not mean there is not power and magic in religious belief. The power comes from religion's ability to bind folks together and the magic comes from faith. I’m afraid neither of these concern god.

Faith is powerful. We are capable of incredible things. We just have doubts. Faith gives us the power to overcome our self-imposed limitations. It also provides us with peace.

Faith allows people to create great things…unimaginable things. It allows the sick to grow well (the placebo effect is very real).

When we lose hope – faith gives us a context for renewal. This is a beautiful thing.

I am deficient in faith and it is one of the saddest truths about myself that I have to cope with.

But, faith is not god. Faith is something humans have. It could be something we developed...like Portland cement. It may be somewhere in our DNA. I don't know.

But, let’s go to god. If a clockmaker exists, we are more likely to find it at the supercollider at Cern than in the paintings of Michelangelo.

We don’t know what we don’t know.

Our understanding of reality is limited by our senses and our Weltanshschauung (google - world view).

There are forces and powers and realities way beyond our limited ability to perceive them.

Sharks hunt by sensing electrical impulses – they “see” a reality we can only intellectually understand. We cannot “see” it for ourselves.

There are many forces in the universe that we cannot “see.” Some we know about - some we don’t.

But even when senses allow us to perceive something…that doesn’t mean it is real.

All you have to do is watch Rashomon to quickly understand that what we accept as "fact" is absolutely distorted by our preconceptions.

This limitation of preconception is why we burned women at Salem (hey, they’re acting stange…it’s the devil’s work) and why we bought into a usless war in Iraq…more the product our belief in American exceptionalism than any real belief in the existence of WMDs (we are so special that we can re-make the middle east into a democratic theme park).

If god - the creator - is to be found,, I’m afraid we will see him/her/it as just another mystery. My guess is that the clockmaker will be beyond our ability to understand.

Maybe we will discover him/her/it in the source of the big bang… or maybe in the essence of biological evolution…or possibly in the space between matter that pulls us together and pushes us apart (which is what Cern is about).

And it may be possible that a clockmaker doesn’t exist.

In Stephen Hawkings’ latest book, he makes such a case.

For years, Hawkings left the god door open. Now, the closest he will go is to say, "possible – but, I don’t think so."

Me? I’m not smart enough to form an opinion. I simply don’t know. That’s why I’m an agnostic.

I am humbled by every new thing that comes along. I just try to pick out the important sentence. Even that seems a hard task these days.

Hmm. Nice cut and paste. I have read that somewhere before. This is not you.

Nope - totally my prose - though it's floating out there in several blogs and I still get e-mails about it. I guess "Thank You" is in order - though my guess is that your comment wasn't intended to be a compliment.

I have found that ALL organized religions have depart so far from their original foundings that all they are now is a way to control a group of people into doing the founders will.

Example: Where in the Bible any Bible does it say that you have to have a billion dollar building to worship. Just someones way of bilking you of your money.

You want to believe in the Lord, Allah, G*d or who ever that is fine. But believe in the true way not lining someone elses pockets or killing those that don't believe as you do.

There's a big difference in concept between "faith" and "religion". Religion is usually a lot of man-made hierarchy, rules and restrictions that give power and honor to the men at the top. God has a way of dealing with people who usurp His sovereign position and give glory to themselves instead of their creator.

Faith is believing and trusting in the God who made us, trusting that He knows what He is doing, as He knew what He was doing when he created this beautiful planet and the life we have in the USA.

Faith is also trusting that He will answer our desperate cries for help. He tests our faith in Him (Abraham with Isaac on the altar is a prime example) and He blesses us many times over for our faith.

He blesses us with a nation that has true freedom to worship as we please....or not. Some of us cherish that freedom, but increasingly, many want an authoritarian central government, USSR-style, which would ban worship of God but gladly welcome servile worship of its statist dictator.

About the "billion dollar" church building....it's not always a "castle" for the money kings as implied above. Most often, the huge church is built because 3-4,000 people cannot all sit down together in a sanctuary that seats 400. There are practical reasons and not all the "megachurches" are lavish materially.

BTW, many of our founding fathers had faith in God, without getting into all the junk of man-made religion.

"In regards to this great Book (the Bible), I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it.” --Abraham Lincoln

My Mother Told Me...
 

...never to discuss either politics or religion in polite company.

Well, I guess I'm batting .500...or is this "polite company"?

I guess we should answer the beginning question by going back to the ever-reliable, compact phrase:

"It's Bush's fault"

...and yes, I remember the "nor prohibit the free exercise thereof" part.

What the Constitution does NOT say is "an establishment of A religion"

"Establishment" is a NOUN, NOT A VERB in that sentence. A church is an "establishment of religion", as is a Catholic-owned school - just as you could say the corner pub is an establishment of alcohol and enterprise.

Nah.....it's gotta be Obama's. :D