Originally Posted by waynet

I don't think this has anything to do with teachers,police,fire. This is an attempt to get rid of unions simple as that.But only certain unions. Why are public safety officer unions exempt from this? Find out the answer and it will tell you what this is really about. And why are the KOch brothers butting in?

In the storm of reform demanded by the voters in November, the unions better learn how to bend or they will break.

In private business, unless their friends in government step in as with the UAW, it's renegotiate or die. The private sector union worker's life is dependent on the products of their employer selling or not selling. They can demand that their contracts ratified in plush times be honored without change throughout their company's financial recession, and their employer would go out of business and they would have nothing. Thus they negotiate concessions, as my former Teamster Local did in NJ.

Public Employees, who produce no product and no revenue and live off the taxes of their fellow citizens do not live in the real world of supply and demand. They expect and demand no change and no concessions as the temple falls down around them.

I understand that they may have a hard time understanding how the falling temple had anything to do with their performance as an employee, but public employees must sometimes feel the ax the same as the private employee. It's either accept the new reality or witness your fellow employees of lesser seniority walk out with a pink slip.

That's still better than the private employee's situation where the employer needs a certain number of employees to stay in business. The public employee's employer is never out of business.

Being the daughter of two teachers and the wife of a member of IBEW, I am solidly with the protestors in Wisconsin. Teacher salary in this country is a disgrace for the educational requirements and the crap they have to take from kids, parents and administration. They are forced to teach for the test now and have kids who don't want to learn, parents who don't give a damn and no money for their classroom supplies. Underpaid and overworked in a system that lacks real education, and now the governor wants to take away the only perk they have, benefits. What he really wants to do is bust the unions and make no mistake about it, they have lifted wages and benefits from the crapper for all of us, union or no. Everybody in the middle class owes them a huge debt because they futhered all of us. Do you really want our kids and grandkids to go back to the days of low wages, poor benefits and no retirement?
Look, I know government entities are strapped right now and nobody has the balls to say we need to raise taxes, but these aren't the people that we need to go after.

NITAKK wrote: "Look, I know government entities are strapped right now and nobody has the balls to say we need to raise taxes, but these aren't the people that we need to go after." So, your solutions NITAKK is to raise taxes! On who?

Why can't teachers pay their fair share for health care benefits and retirement? I'm in the private sector and pay approximately 30% on my health care costs with my employer picking up the balance. Teachers currently pay zero in Wisconsin for their health care benefits and Governor Walker wants them to pay 12.5%. Teachers pay zero for retirement benefits and Governor Walker wants them to contribute 5.8% of their salaries. What a hardship that would be!

Currently, teachers in Wisconsin with enough years of service, can retire at 55 years old with a pension equal to the average of their three highest paid years. They also receive free health benefits. Show me where in the private sector people have such lucrative benefits!

The bigger issue is collective bargaining and that's why the unions have showed up in droves and have had protestors bused in from out of state. The unions don't want to lose their hold, and susequent dollars received, and are spending millions and millions on this battle.

Teachers have difficult jobs, no doubt about it, but it's time they pay their own way. And calling in sick to go to the state capitol to protest sends out a terrible message to parents and students. Many of these parents then had to find alternative arrangements or take time off from their own jobs to take care of their children. Complete school districts were shut down last week due to "sick" teachers!

As I said earlier, it's getting more difficult to feed all these people from the taxpayers trough and I believe the last election demonstrated how fed up people are!

Originally Posted by nitakk

Being the daughter of two teachers and the wife of a member of IBEW, I am solidly with the protestors in Wisconsin. Teacher salary in this country is a disgrace for the educational requirements and the crap they have to take from kids, parents and administration. They are forced to teach for the test now and have kids who don't want to learn, parents who don't give a damn and no money for their classroom supplies. Underpaid and overworked in a system that lacks real education, and now the governor wants to take away the only perk they have, benefits. What he really wants to do is bust the unions and make no mistake about it, they have lifted wages and benefits from the crapper for all of us, union or no. Everybody in the middle class owes them a huge debt because they futhered all of us. Do you really want our kids and grandkids to go back to the days of low wages, poor benefits and no retirement?
Look, I know government entities are strapped right now and nobody has the balls to say we need to raise taxes, but these aren't the people that we need to go after.

Here in Il.we have over 3000 teachers getting pensions above 100k a year plus cola"s and free insurance. Our band teacher at the local high school makes 130k and free Insurance.I think they are paid very well here and I hope we do wht Wi. is doing.The free ride for them and public employees is over.Its time they pay for some of their benifits and pension.Why should they be treated any different from people in the private sector They are no different then anybody else and its time for elected officials to stand up to them unlike the dem's in Wis who are affraid to lose some of their base.I hope The Gov in Wis follows in Regan's foot steps and warns them and if they do not return fire them.I for the life of me can't understand why people can't see that you have to live within your means.Were surrounded by fools that have not done that their whole life and expect goverment to do the same.Its easy to see were that has got us.We must pay as we go not put on it future generations as we have in the past for no reason other then greed

Being married I had to work while completing my college studies. Living in New York I was forced to join two separate unions in order to work. What I discovered was that these unions blocked productivity and irrespective of how hard or well a person worked they were all paid about the same. The issue of unions today is about votes. it is why Obama via his Organization for America sent protesters to Wisconsin. New York city can't afford the grip unions have on it. American Auto Mfg can't compete with the grip the UAW has on them. The recent right to form a union among the ranks of the TSA will harm security. It goes on and on. This quid pro quo between politicians and unions is bankrupting state after state and I for one want the governor to win in wisconsin. By the way not only should the teachers be fired so should those Democrat pols who fled Wisconsin. I hope the Governor at least stopped their pay and explained to them while their away their per diem stops also.

is to cut the services that directly affect the people like schools, firemen, police force, close public parks, etc.

Whan was the last time they froze ALL hiring? When was the last time the froze ALL pay increases for other than those that directly serve the people?

We all know the pet projects, the projects of the special interests and supporters do not get affected.

Do you know that in way too many cases just because a given project was a line item in the budget it remains a line item in the budget even if the project/activity was completed? It is a way of preserving their base line of money to be spent.

Until such time as ALL non essential spending is curtailed there will always be cuts at the people's level. And of course the politicians have their own definition of essential....that is anything that benefits them, their re-election or their special interests or supporters.

How do these same cities continue to build new sports arenas? Theaters? Etc.

If you were to spend the time to review....really review their budgets....what they spent last year....compared to what they are asking for this year you would find very quickly the budgets are so padded plus contingencies you might be surprised. No, I will go so far as to say you will be shocked!!!

Why is there no talk of cutting their travel and living expense accounts? Why are there no discussions of who gets cars and all the expenses paid for them? How about the trips they take to go to Chuna to see how they make baskets (sarcasm!!)? It will never happen because it affects them!!!!

The people need to stop watching the media and demand their representatives account for the revenues recieved and live within the confines of those revenues after making deductions for teachers, police, firemen, etc, etc, etc.

We the people just don't do that and the politicians count on it.

Having been personally involved with turning around businesses that were losers into profitable entities I can almost guarantee you they are NOT approaching the budgeting process from YOUR perspective. WHy would they? Nobody demands they do so. NOBODY!!!!!!!!

btk

Originally Posted by dennis11003

I sent an e-mail to Governer Walker telling him I support him and that he will win this fight. The people of Wisconsin spoke last year when they elected him governor because he had a vision for cutting the projected $3.2 billion dollar deficit over the next two years.

Governor Walker wants teacher to pay 12.5% of their health care costs and contribute 5.8% of their salaries into their pension plans. Currently, they pay ZERO! Currently, the AVERAGE teacher salary in Wisconsin is around $53,000 with another $20,000 in benefits. Pretty good for 9 months of work. In the Milwaukee Public School System, the AVERAGE with benefits is just over $100,000.

The more critical issue is collective bargaining. The union negotiates contracts for everyone in the state - good teachers and bad teachers and there is almost no chance to get rid of underperforming teachers. Removing collective bargaining would allow the individual school districts or communities to negotiate with their teachers and not the union. The union would become almost irrelevent in the state of Wisconsin.

Governor Walker has the votes to pass the measure as there are 19 Republican Senators and only 14 Democrat senators but, state law requires a quorum of 20 present for any voting so all the Democrats left for Illinois so no voting could take place. Up and left the state and people were cheering them!

I would never bash teachers as they have a very important and difficult job but they need to be in touch with what most workers are facing - reduced salaries, reduced benefits and ever increasing taxes!

By the way, the Democratic National Committee sent busloads of protestors from Illinois to Madison yesterday and the Reverend Jesse Jackson also showed up.

I don't know if it can be done but I would jail all the senators that fled the state for derilection of duty and fire the teachers who took a sick day to protest in Madison. Whole school systems were shut down because not enough substitutes could be found. Parents were left scrambling looking for day care options or having to take off from their own jobs to look after their kids.

It's a circus but when Governor Walker is successful, other states may also take his lead and see what can be done. Taxpayers can't keep the trough filled too much longer!

I wish posters would list sources when posting. Both sides of protesters use similar tactics. Joe the Plumber doesn't live in Wisconsin.
Teachers in neighboring states contribute to their retirement programs.
The average teacher salary in Wisconsin is $46,360. It might 10 to 15 years to reach the top salary after earning another degree. Starting salary is $25,222 which ranks 49th (second from last) in the nation.http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisc...teacher-salary That is salary and does not include benefits.
So fire all of these teachers? Where are the replacements? The assistant principals can have classes in the gym for the next few months.
Why not offer incentives to retire early and replace experienced teachers with teachers who make less? Then require new hires to pay more of their medical and pension.
I thought that as of Friday state employees were willing to make concessions on medical and contributions to their retirement program. Some state employees are exempt from these demands. The issue is the right to bargain collectively. Question: In Wisconsin do individual districts negotiate with the teachers and other school employees or is it statewide?

Everyone protects their turf. That is natural. Look at the reaction to many at the suggestion that the capital gains tax be raised or to rescind tax cuts for the wealthy. I think that if all of their medical benefits are paid by the state or the district that needs to change.
This is another attempt to break the right to bargain collectively. Protect worker's rights on the job. We know the lessons of deregulation.
Should firefighters also be given a deadline? Aren't these the heroes of 911? Short memories.What a slap in their faces for the risks they take to save property and lives.

http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher...wisconsin.html

"...teaching salaries averaged $52,644 in 2009-10, according to the National Education Association..."

"...elementary school teachers earned $51,240, and secondary school teachers earned $49,400..."

"...with most school districts offering benefits that range from health insurance to retirement plans..."

"...Education and experience level also make a difference in teacher salaries: secondary school teachers in the 90th wage percentile earned $69,550, while the entry-level teacher salary is generally in the $30,000s..."

This is all about campaign funding and nothing else. Break up the unions and you take away Democratic money to counteract the huge amount of corporate funds allowed by the Supreme Court ruling.
Just on a personal note. I began teaching in 1970 with a $4,800 salary. After my first year we asked for a 2% raise.It was denied. The next year also denied. What teachers and other public employees found out is that cities and states WILL NOT bargain in good faith if they don't have to.People do not want to pay for services never have, never will period.

Originally Posted by billethkid

is to cut the services that directly affect the people like schools, firemen, police force, close public parks, etc.

Whan was the last time they froze ALL hiring? When was the last time the froze ALL pay increases for other than those that directly serve the people?

We all know the pet projects, the projects of the special interests and supporters do not get affected.

Do you know that in way too many cases just because a given project was a line item in the budget it remains a line item in the budget even if the project/activity was completed? It is a way of preserving their base line of money to be spent.

Until such time as ALL non essential spending is curtailed there will always be cuts at the people's level. And of course the politicians have their own definition of essential....that is anything that benefits them, their re-election or their special interests or supporters.

How do these same cities continue to build new sports arenas? Theaters? Etc.

If you were to spend the time to review....really review their budgets....what they spent last year....compared to what they are asking for this year you would find very quickly the budgets are so padded plus contingencies you might be surprised. No, I will go so far as to say you will be shocked!!!

Why is there no talk of cutting their travel and living expense accounts? Why are there no discussions of who gets cars and all the expenses paid for them? How about the trips they take to go to Chuna to see how they make baskets (sarcasm!!)? It will never happen because it affects them!!!!

The people need to stop watching the media and demand their representatives account for the revenues recieved and live within the confines of those revenues after making deductions for teachers, police, firemen, etc, etc, etc.

We the people just don't do that and the politicians count on it.

Having been personally involved with turning around businesses that were losers into profitable entities I can almost guarantee you they are NOT approaching the budgeting process from YOUR perspective. WHy would they? Nobody demands they do so. NOBODY!!!!!!!!

btk

You are sooooooooooo right btk. Kudos and we need more of your kind of strategy to realize that cutting the budget NEEDS TO START AT THE TOP not the bottom!!!! How do we turn that around? This is a free country except it's only free to the powers-that be, unfortunately. We're so top heavily financially burdened that we, the people, will never regain our financial independence by continuing to ignore what's going on in the executive offices with their greed. The average American citizen like myself feels so helpless as to what to do. I do my homework in my choice of voting, well, that doesn't seem to help as the choices one must make are so unknown (we really don't know these candidates and certainly don't feel that their platform is real); it's like a crap shoot, huh? We don't even really vote the candidates into office which needs to be changed since it goes to a higher power to vote them into office.

Maybe the best way to turn this upsidedown is to somehow vote in the lower/middle class citizens and give up on these extremely wealthy no-good greedy politicians. Get rid of ALL of the golden fleece in office!!

I will now crawl down from my soapbox.

Unions protesting in the streets of 14 states today....

Looks like Glenn beck has a crystal ball.

"United we bargain,divided we beg" Go Union!!

According to the US Census New York spends $17,173 per pupil annually. Teachers rank among the highest paid/benefits enablig them to retire in their 50's Yet the state's education department acknowledges that only 23% of city kids are college ready and 4 of 10 won't earn a high school diploma. These statistics are replicate throughout the country. The USA ranks 28th among countries in its educational rankings.

The unions are battling the "opt out" proposal in Wisconsin because union dues equate to political power. Here are some initiatives by unions with the dues they collect: OregonEducation Assoc & SEIU for passage of ballot 66/67 which increased business income taxes some $727 miilion. Arizona teacher and public safety unions used these funds to increase state tax 5.6% to 6.6% raising an additional $1 billion. The same sort of initiatives in Washington, Californai, New York, Maryland... Huge political contribution to Obama and Obama look a likes has been well established.

Teachers, good ones can make the total difference in the life of a child. We all have fond memories of those teachers that had a positive effect on our lives. So my point is not about teachers, its about unions and the reality that they get in the way of progress by building their power base and making financial demands in order to justify their existence and making pols dependent on them for reelections. This comes at the expense of students and taxpayers. So I guess it is no surprise then that the only segment of society experiencing growth in employment are in the public sector, that is until now.

Originally Posted by bargee

"United we bargain,divided we beg" Go Union!!

I've never been in a union and I've never begged. I've earned everything I have.

Folks received an advance copy of the Ann Coulter article which will appear in Sunday's Daily Sun concerning the union activity in Wisconsin. It's a hoot!