Can we please stick to one argument at a time?

Just like those who say we need more guns to stop the violence when all the stats show that the more guns we have, the more people die from being shot.

I think this is related because it goes to the heart of the mindset of people who refuse to accept the facts -- in other words, it's the same thing, the same processing of information that leads to harmful actions.

I think this is related because it goes to the heart of the mindset of people who refuse to accept YOUR INTERPRETATION OF the facts

Here’s the sentence from the Keyser study…..
“ In fall 2021, about 3 in 10 adults dying of COVID-19 were vaccinated or boosted. But by January 2022, as we showed in an analysis posted on the Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker, about 4 in 10 deaths were vaccinated or boosted. By April 2022, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) data show that about 6 in 10 adults dying of COVID-19 were vaccinated or boosted, and that’s remained true through at least August 2022”

So, the answer is no?

I sense you don't know that "correlation does not imply causation"...

I'm afraid that we are a bot off-topic, but I'd be interested in knowing where you obtained your information about the Kaiser Foundations study. The Foundation is not a part of Kaiser Permanente, it merely reports medical statistics but as far as I'm aware they make no recommendations for or against anything. I would stand corrected if you could qualify your statement with a link that I could review. Thank you.

Please start a new thread. This thread is dedicated to the bashing of pit bulls...

The police did nothing?

A well trained dog can be amazing, I used to admire “Daddy”, Cesar Milan’s pit bull. But if you observed this dog, every 7 seconds he’d look at Cesar as if to say, “Am I being a good dog, now? Am I doing what you want?” And I mean EVERY 7 seconds or so. THAT is training. But there is only one Cesar, I stopped breeding because I didn’t feel comfortable with people who bought a “cute” puppy, not ready for what that dog needs when full grown.

First let me say that my heart breaks for the family that lost their precious pup. My daughter rescued a pit bull several years ago. There was no back history on the dog but the tears in his ears and bite marks on his body spoke volumes. I thought my daughter was crazy to take on this responsibility. Well, this was the sweetest dog and the name she gave him, Romeo, speaks volumes. Problem is that his very muscular build and massive jaws had the potential to do real damage. Thankfully that never happened. As for labs being high on the list of frequent biters…my golden retriever bit me, requiring a tetanus shot and stitches. He had always been docile up to that point. The bottom line is, just like people, any animal could snap at anytime. Being a responsible owner makes for a good dog. And above all, there is a leash law for a reason! I see way to many walked off leash. I currently have the 13th dog of my life and cannot imagine life without her.

Again, my sympathies to the family that lost their precious dog.

I think your Russian Roulette analogy is perfect.

I know two women who have pit bulls. Both of these women are highly intelligent and successful, but when it comes to their dogs, common sense seems to not be a factor.

They definitely subscribe to that embedded mantra, “It’s not the dog. It’s the owner.” (I have always found that to be an arrogant statement on the part of pit bull owners, like they think they are in some special category that can overcome nature.)

One of these pit bull owners has small children and likes to talk about how “good” the pit is with the kids although highly territorial in most other situations…..Hellooo, sounds like a time bomb to me. (I cringe, and hope I never regret keeping my mouth shut — which would not make any difference anyway. The mantra would continue.)

Years ago, we were at a small party at the home of someone with a pit. The dog had taken a liking to Mr. Boomer and was sitting next to him. I later sat down with the dog between us and when I turned to talk to Mr. B, that dog growled in my face. I made sure not to even look at Mr. Boomer after that and quickly made polite excuses to leave. I think I could have lost my face had I not taken that dog’s hint. I am sure glad I had sense enough to read that dog.

I find Nature/Nurture to be fascinating, whether in dogs or people……

As a parallel to Nature/Nurture in dogs, I think of the dog we got not long after we were married. We wanted a middle- sized dog, so I looked at newspaper ads where I found a Brittany Spaniel……..

She was a beauty, who knew more about her ancestry that we know about ours. Her grandpa was a field champion. Her markings were perfect, just like the orange and white Brittany pictures in books.

We do not hunt birds or anything else. We just wanted a pet. I bought a book about Brittany Spaniels that I called my Brittany Spaniel Manual. I still remember the first sentence, “The Brittany is at home at the hearth as well as at the hunt.”

She had a wonderful life with us for over 16 years — before that last ride to the vet.

But, here’s the thing, even though she was our pet and lived in the house and had never, ever been taken hunting, we soon realized that when outside, her nose was almost always sniffing the air, not the ground, and she would often go into a perfect point and could hold that point forever.

There was a big county park close to us and those were the days when we could let her run there. One day, she was flushing birds from cattails by the lake and a man who was watching tried his best to buy her from us.

The point of this dissertation on our Brittany Spaniel is that she had been bred to hunt and it was in her nature and showed up whenever she got the chance to go into her perfect point or to flush birds. It was fun to see and we gave her many opportunities to exercise and show off her bird dog nature, though we did not carry along a shotgun — much to her disappointment, I’m sure. :)

Nature/Nurture? I think — and have seen — that both are always there, whether in people or dogs.

There is an old saying, “What’s bred in the bone comes out in the flesh.” — Applied to a bird dog? That’s OK. But when applied to a pit bull………………

Boomer

I neglected to mention in my previous post the Pit Bulls were once used as “nanny dogs” because they were so good with children. That leads me to believe that nature/nurture plays a huge part in the reputation of this breed.

It's a good job nature and genetics decided Chihuahua's should be small.
If they were large dogs, they would eat Pit bulls for breakfast.
Dachshunds are stroppy little boogers as well.
It's the 'ankle snappers' you have to be careful of!

Hey Boomer,

Was I replying to you? Didn't think so...

Oh, and thanks for keeping track of post counts. We can always "count" on you for that!

Insurance companies operate using Actuary Tables and Statistical Analysis. If they allow or disallow Boxers or any other breeds it isn't because someone knows someone who has a gentle Dog. They take statistics on dog attacks seriously and don't dismiss them because they've owned 3 Boxers and those 3 never hurt anyone.

Let's stay on topic regarding the dangerousness of Pit Bulls. To do that I'll admit I was wrong to use Covid shots as a comparison. OK. With that out of the way... Since you trust statistics that tell us more vaxxed than non-vaxxed are getting sick- do you also trust the statistics that tell us that year after year Pit Bulls are the #1 killer of people?

There are people in forums that stand off to the side- holding a big fan, always on the lookout for a spark they can fan into a flame. Seeing these fires flare- and Causing these fires to flare feeds some persistent hunger they have that is only satisfied when they see others unhappy. The other way they get the food to feed this weakness is by directly insulting others.

I was replying to a post from 'Nucky' regarding his old Boxer.
Nothing to do with Insurance Claims, Actuary Tables or Statistical Analysis, or how Boxers were rated on the dangerous dog scale.
Anecdotal responses are still allowed I believe!

Bravo! Well done!

:bigbow::1rotfl::bigbow::1rotfl::bigbow:

Ah, our friend, Two Bills — and his wonderful, subtle, insightful, British sense of humor.

You spotted me. I do love a good pillow fight. I guess it shows. Just a pillow fight. Nothing meaner. (My money’s on the girl. :))

Boomer

My Chihuahua Terrier mix would chase a sweet pit bull around the big field at a local private dog park while barking at it. The poor sweet pit bull mix received $700 worth of damages done by big dogs at the dog park. She recovered the first time, came back months later, and got bitten by a big dog. The total was $700. Most wounds to the face.

Sorta like that scene in the movie "Patton" where his pit bull William was cowed and dominated by a bit of fluff owned by a British woman. Amusing, but what made it so is the fact that in it ran counter to the norm. Most of the time, cute little bits of fluff are the TARGET of pit bulls.

In a like vein, my brother swears that his cute little miniature dachshund chased an adult timber wolf from his yard. My brother has been known to exaggerate a bit now and then. But I suppose that, however unlikely, it IS possible. That little dog of his is a pretty take-charge kind of critter, usually dominating any group of (usually much larger) dogs.

Which one? :thumbup:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/8PBsW...GVoJ/giphy.gif

Totally agree! And I thought posts were supposed to be on topic and not personal. My ignore list is getting longer.

No I’m just saying the breed needs to be eventually eliminated if that aggressiveness is hard wired in their genetic makeup. Let’s cut some slack to those who presently own pits but strictly enforce registration and strictly penalize noncompliance. A $50 fine for allowing your overly aggressive and uncontrolled pit to kill another owners dog is unjust

U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities: Breeds of Dogs Involved, Age Groups and Other Factors Over a 13-Year Period (2005 to 2017)

I assume "pit bull" covers a number of different dog breeds. 5 Types of Pit Bull Dog Breeds

I agree to that if ANY overly aggressive dog killed another dog...

But the question is "IF" that aggression is hardwired or not...

I'm of the belief that are very few "bad dogs", just bad owners... Just as there are very few "bad people", just bad parents... Are there exceptions? Most certainly.

The previous owner of my home had two large dogs that he refused to keep on leash. They terrorized the neighbors who were riding their bikes and other dogs out on walks with their owners.

He even got into a physical altercation with someone at the dog park, resulting in assault charges... He was the poster child for being a "bad owner"...

Lest I repeat myself, the "previous" owner... He no longer lives in TV...

The problem with pits is not that they bite. ALL dogs will bite, given motivation/reason to do so. The problem is the physiology of the pit's bite. Their jaw structure and the power behind their facial musculature. THAT is what makes their bites more of a problem than that of other dogs. It's not their training, it's not bad owners, it's not bad dogs. It's just anatomy/physiology of canines, nothing more or less.

The reason it's newsworthy - is because of the owners of these animals. Not because of the dogs themselves. The dogs are doing what dogs do, in whatever circumstances they are placed in, given whatever training they're given (or lack thereof). An improperly-trained chihuahua will bite more often than an improperly-trained pit bull. Here's why: because no one thinks of a chihuahua as a "dangerous breed" so when they bite, it's often dismissed as "oh chihuahuas are tiny, no harm, here's $50 for the stitches, my bad, woopsie, who's a good widdle doggie, YOU are a good widdle doggie!"

And so they will bite again, and again, because their owners refuse to acknowledge that dogs biting is a bad thing, no matter what breed they are or how cute or small they are.

If a pit bites someone, the DOG is vilified. It's not the dog. It's the owner. Always.

Wait, What? We agree??? Excuse me while I pass out for a second... :shocked::shocked::shocked: :thumbup:

I have been bitten by dogs, but never by an owner.
Some dogs have been bred to be aggressive. The potential for bites increases in those breeds because owners either don't understand that some breeds require more training, maintenance and attention and , or they just aren't able or willing fulfill the dogs need.

Suggest you hire a lawyer and see if the attorney can help you. Does not matter what the cop did or did not do. It is a civil matter and cops do not get involved if the dog owner did not commit a crime.

Dogs that are bred to be aggressive can have that aggressiveness trained out of them. It requires a human willing and able to do the work.

Once again - it is the owner, not the dog. Always.

Just like an aggressive bull can be taught not to charge and a deadly snake can be taught never to strike…. NOT! A pit bull can be trained but can never be fully trusted not to perform their innate behavior.

True. Aggressive behavior is bred in, not learned. The dogs aren't "bad", just naturally aggressive. They require special care and attention and handling.
"You can take the boy out of Brooklyn, but you can't take Brooklyn out of the boy", and "a leopard can't change it's spots", and a cute little pitbull puppy will grow into a pitbull. Large, powerful, and maybe more than you bargained for.

We (The Bronx) use to have a similar saying about taking the boy(?) out of Brooklyn, but we used a different word.

It must be a blue moon or a cold day in hell because I am disagreeing with OBB.

May I ask, does that “Always” mean that you think there is no Nature to it and that it’s all about Nurture?

To extend my question — are our individual personalities as humans dependent completely on Nurture or are some things just our Nature? (I recognize that as humans our personality traits can be modified by Nurture — or the lack of Nurture — but, even so, I see our individual human Nature as being in us from the beginning.)

Boomer

I'm sure there are hundreds of variation of that saying. I just randomly selected Brooklyn. Could have just as easily said L. A. (calif). Basically, things are what they are. Training will not turn a pitbull into something it is not.

I owe you an apology...

When I called you a "post counter" I had you confused with another poster, who's name also starts with "Bo" and has a hard time making pars...

Mea Culpa...