Deadly Force. Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

[Carl in Tampa]

Discussions on TOTV about home protection options have been vigorous and interesting. A couple of posters have made observations that some posters appear eager to have an armed confrontation with a burglar. The following gives some insight into personality types and how it affects their attitude toward confrontation.

This post contains excerpts from a much longer, excellent essay from a book. A link to the book appears at the end.

Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

Excerpts from an essay
by
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman


One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: “Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident.” This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

(On a per capita basis) violence is remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin’s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

“Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

“Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.” Or, as a sign in one California law enforcement agency put it, “We intimidate those who intimidate others.”

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath--a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed. *

----------------------------


This is a quite long article and I have skipped the section on the positive aspects of aggression, but this paragraph is insightful:

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

---------------------------

And, this about the Sheepdog:

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones. Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.

---------------------------------

And, one last paragraph addressed to the Sheepdog:

If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be “on” 24/7 for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... “Baa.”



The entire, lengthy article can be found at:

On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs (http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm)

:police::police::super::police::police:

[CFrance]

Thank you for editing that and putting it together, Carl. I will never be anything but a sheep, but you have given some explanations that answer a log of the contradictory feelings I have about different people's tendency toward or response to violence.

[borjo]

Wow, Carl! Wonderful insight by the Lt. Col. Thanks for sharing this.

[redwitch]

Definitely a sheep dog here. What bothers me, though, is the willingness some here have to at least say they will pull out their gun and use it for any offense. Sorry, you want to rob my house, be my guest. Not gonna stop you nor confront you. However, if I happen to walk in and see you there and you don't spot me, I will be calling the police to come get you. If you so much as threaten a hair on my cat's head or mine or another human's while robbing me, be prepared to get shot and I have no intention of wounding you.

[Taltarzac725]

Believe it depends on the circumstances in my case. I remember a very compromising situation late one night when a "friend" asked me what I would do if I were raped. I said I would stick a sharp instrument through an eye socket. This was when I was a tenant of a man in a very bad part of Minneapolis while he was just in his underwear and I had no access to a car. I am straight but his being bi-sexual was quite a surprise.

I had also been the victim of an attempted car jacking around 1984 near a rest stop on US Highway 50 near Sacramento Pass in Nevada. I pulled in late at night half asleep and a man in a suit, no less, grabbed my car door and threatened to slam it on my legs. I told him no and quickly moved my legs. If he had not moved very quickly, he would have had his feet run over or worse if he had tried to block my egress.

[buggyone]

Ah yes, the Sheepdogs are going to be protecting all of us stupid sheep. I found this article one piece of ridiculousness.

The ones who have their concealed carry permits are remiss in their civic duties if they do not carry a pistol everytime they venture into the streets of The Villages is going too far overboard.

I will concede that law enforcement officers need to be armed. Not retired law enforcement officers, but ones on active duty and even off duty.

The Villages is one of the safest places you can live. Naturally, I will see the comeback that the bad guys know so many Villagers pack heat and therefore are scared to come here. More ridiculousness!

If the murder rate mentioned by the author is 6 per 100,000, The Villages should be having at least 6 murders per year. How many years has it been since a murder took place?

We thank you for your duty as a law enforcement officer but you have now retired. Leave it to the active duty law enforcement officers and play golf and relax in this wonderful community.

[CFrance]

Ah yes, the Sheepdogs are going to be protecting all of us stupid sheep. I found this article one piece of ridiculousness.

The ones who have their concealed carry permits are remiss in their civic duties if they do not carry a pistol everytime they venture into the streets of The Villages is going too far overboard.

I will concede that law enforcement officers need to be armed. Not retired law enforcement officers, but ones on active duty and even off duty.

The Villages is one of the safest places you can live. Naturally, I will see the comeback that the bad guys know so many Villagers pack heat and therefore are scared to come here. More ridiculousness!

If the murder rate mentioned by the author is 6 per 100,000, The Villages should be having at least 6 murders per year. How many years has it been since a murder took place?

We thank you for your duty as a law enforcement officer but you have now retired. Leave it to the active duty law enforcement officers and play golf and relax in this wonderful community.
Oh, thanks, now I'm back to the contradictory feelings again!:ohdear:

[buggyone]

Oh, thanks, now I'm back to the contradictory feelings again!:ohdear:

You can find articles like the one posted in every gun magazine out there or a book written by former law enforcement officers. We could expect nothing else.

It is their culture to do so. They have worked hard for their 20 or 30 years in law enforcement and are getting handsome retirement benefits for that work. Nothing wrong with that.

However, to say they are the protectors of everyone who does not carry a gun whenever they go outside is somewhat beyond the beyonds.

Mrs. Buggy and I really enjoyed meeting and chatting with you today. Remember what she told you! Enjoy the juices.

[Taltarzac725]

Ah yes, the Sheepdogs are going to be protecting all of us stupid sheep. I found this article one piece of ridiculousness.

The ones who have their concealed carry permits are remiss in their civic duties if they do not carry a pistol everytime they venture into the streets of The Villages is going too far overboard.

I will concede that law enforcement officers need to be armed. Not retired law enforcement officers, but ones on active duty and even off duty.

The Villages is one of the safest places you can live. Naturally, I will see the comeback that the bad guys know so many Villagers pack heat and therefore are scared to come here. More ridiculousness!

If the murder rate mentioned by the author is 6 per 100,000, The Villages should be having at least 6 murders per year. How many years has it been since a murder took place?

We thank you for your duty as a law enforcement officer but you have now retired. Leave it to the active duty law enforcement officers and play golf and relax in this wonderful community.


I doubt if the retired police officers carry firearms while they are just going out in the Villages unless they have some valid reason to do this. There is that odd one that carries when he or she probably should have left it at home like with the Tampa police officer. But, then if one of the people had been carrying at the Aurora movie theater? The Aurora and the Wesley Chapel community members probably thought that something like that could never happen in their community either.

I see some retired police officers quite often at some of the places I frequent in the Villages and they never appear to be carrying any kinds of weapons. I would think that a perceptive person would be able to tell when someone else has a gun on their person.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I see some retired police officers quite often at some of the places I frequent in the Villages and they never appear to be carrying any kinds of weapons. I would think that a perceptive person would be able to tell when someone else has a gun on their person.

Really? And how exactly does a perceptive person such as yourself tell if a person is carrying a concealed weapon. I mean if you could tell it wouldn't be concealed would it?

I have found that several people that I know carry a gun all the time and in every instance except one, (he was a secret service agent) I was surprised.

[Carl in Tampa]

You can find articles like the one posted in every gun magazine out there or a book written by former law enforcement officers. We could expect nothing else.

It is their culture to do so. They have worked hard for their 20 or 30 years in law enforcement and are getting handsome retirement benefits for that work. Nothing wrong with that.

However, to say they are the protectors of everyone who does not carry a gun whenever they go outside is somewhat beyond the beyonds.

Mrs. Buggy and I really enjoyed meeting and chatting with you today. Remember what she told you! Enjoy the juices.



Buggyone, you didn't do well in interpreting the article, and I doubt that you read the longer article from which it was taken.

The article is an analogy of personality types. I won't repeat them here but since you missed the point, you might consider reading it again. Incidentally, the sheep are not characterized as "stupid" in the article.

------------------

Your aversion to firearms in the hands of the people has been quite obvious on TOTV, so your negative reaction to the article could be anticipated, but I wasn't aware it extended to retired law enforcement officers.

You may think that retired law enforcement officers should not carry firearms, but the Congress of the United States, and the last two Presidents do not agree with you. Congress passed The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 and President Bush signed it into law. Congress later amended the act and President Obama signed the amendment.

The LEOSA authorizes active duty police officers and qualified retirees to carry a concealed firearm throughout the entire United States without a concealed weapons license. This is the case, "nothwithstanding any state or local law to the contrary." There are, of course some exceptions, such as state office buildings and private property that is properly posted, but even New York's notorious Sullivan Law is triumphed by the LEOSA.

Your last paragraph appears to be directed toward me, and I find it condescending and insulting. My personality did not change upon retirement. I was, and am, a Sheepdog.

.

[Taltarzac725]

Really? And how exactly does a perceptive person such as yourself tell if a person is carrying a concealed weapon. I mean if you could tell it wouldn't be concealed would it?

I have found that several people that I know carry a gun all the time and in every instance except one, (he was a secret service agent) I was surprised.

We are talking about life in the Villages. It is kind of hard to conceal a gun when you are in shorts and a T-shirt, or in a bathing suit, or in tight fitting very warm weather clothes. I suppose if this were a colder climate it would be harder or if men usually carried backpacks and purses.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/09/26/guide-to-concealed-carry/

Where do your friends (in the Villages!) conceal their weapons? I also would be curious why they think they need one? I can understand victims of long term domestic violence, stalkers, or ex-cops who might have criminals with grudges against them; people who carry large sums of money; bodyguards; and some others. Basically any one who had a profession where they would have created enemies of the lethal kind.

[Carl in Tampa]

Really? And how exactly does a perceptive person such as yourself tell if a person is carrying a concealed weapon. I mean if you could tell it wouldn't be concealed would it?

I have found that several people that I know carry a gun all the time and in every instance except one, (he was a secret service agent) I was surprised.


I haven't had conversations about concealed carry with all of the Secret Service retirees in The Villages, (there are few of us here) but I know of one who told me he doesn't carry here, but does carry if he is going "outside."

I'll send you a PM to see if the retiree you know is one I socialize with.

Incidentally, we have one retired agent who just turned 90 a few weeks ago. At his birthday party his children gave him a new driver. He plays golf three days a week.


:gc:

[kittygilchrist]

I was, and am, a Sheepdog.

.

Thanks for the post Carl, WOOF!
I became a sheepdog because of what I learned about people when I was a provider of mental health services with:

sexually abused children
sexual abuse perpetrators
the criminally insane
juvenile offenders
youthful offenders

For those who think you can tell who is carrying, ladies may carry in a purse, and I've known men who carried in an oversized front pocket of shorts.

[manaboutown]

Study after study shows that where folks are not allowed to carry or own handguns to protect themselves murder rates are higher, usually much higher. In gun control areas the illegally armed criminal wolves can attack defenseless law abiding sheep at whim and will. Harvard Study: No Correlation Between Gun Control and Less Violent Crime (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/27/Harvard-Study-Shows-No-Correlation-Between-Strict-Gun-Control-And-Less-Crime-Violence)

[Carl in Tampa]

We are talking about life in the Villages. It is kind of hard to conceal a gun when you are in shorts ahttps://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36035&d=1395356102nd a T-shirt, or in a bathing suit, or in tight fitting very warm weather clothes. I suppose if this were a colder climate it would be harder or if men usually carried backpacks and purses.

Concealed Carry: How to Dress For Concealed Carry | The Art of Manliness (http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/09/26/guide-to-concealed-carry/)

Where do your friends (in the Villages!) conceal their weapons? I also would be curious why they think they need one? I can understand victims of long term domestic violence, stalkers, or ex-cops who might have criminals with grudges against them; people who carry large sums of money; bodyguards; and some others. Basically any one who had a profession where they would have created enemies of the lethal kind.


You posted a link to an excellent article about effective concealment of your weapon. I found it deficient in only two places; its treatment of the smaller caliber pistols and its discussion of inside-the-pocket carry.

North American Arms (NAA) produces a high quality .22 rim fire magnum revolver which is so small that it is incredibly concealable. It can even be equipped with a folding handle with a clip on it to facilitate hiding it. I'll attach photos.

Kel-Tec, and some other companies are producing small semi-automatic pistols in .32 and .380 caliber which are carried very comfortably in the pocket inside a holster which prevents the outline of the pistol from being discerned. The article you linked seemed unaware of the developments in the pocket holster area. See photos.

I assure you that someone in shoes, shorts, tee shirt and golf hat has a multitude of places to conceal a firearm. Actually, even if in a bathing suit alone it can be done.

.

[Steve9930]

I read that some time ago. I believe its a good representation.

[Steve9930]

I support open carry. I do have a CCP but would rather open carry if I could.

[chiefrose]

I attended a presentation by the Colonel at Quantico several years ago and he is a dynamic speaker.

Coincidently, I have been retired from LE for over eight years and have yet to carry even though I have a permit to carry in all 50 states.

[Carl in Tampa]

I attended a presentation by the Colonel at Quantico several years ago and he is a dynamic speaker.

Coincidently, I have been retired from LE for over eight years and have yet to carry even though I have a permit to carry in all 50 states.

A permit? I haven't heard of a nationwide permit. Are you referring to the Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act of 2004? Technically, there is no permit. It is a federal law.

In order for you to be in compliance with the law you must have two documents on your person, neither of which is a permit:

1. Photographic identification issued by the law enforcement agency from which you retired indicating you meet the requirements defining a "qualified" retiree.

2. A document certified by a firearms instructor that during the most recent 12-month period you have qualified with the firearm type which you wish to carry to specific standards defined in the law.

Without both of these documents on your person you are not authorized to carry a concealed weapon in all 50 states under LEOSA.

Incidentally, LEOSA is not confined to the 50 states. Section 921, Chapter 44 of Title 18 reads: “The term ‘State’ includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the United States.

As I understand the essay there is no shame associated with being a sheep. It was simply the analogy invoked by the Colonel in writing the article.

:police:

[perrjojo]

Well, I am a sheep, always have been, always will be. I must say however that I am grateful for the sheep dog that keeps me and my flock safe from the wolf! It is a good analogy.

[ilovetv]

Ah yes, the Sheepdogs are going to be protecting all of us stupid sheep. I found this article one piece of ridiculousness.

The ones who have their concealed carry permits are remiss in their civic duties if they do not carry a pistol everytime they venture into the streets of The Villages is going too far overboard.

I will concede that law enforcement officers need to be armed. Not retired law enforcement officers, but ones on active duty and even off duty.

The Villages is one of the safest places you can live. Naturally, I will see the comeback that the bad guys know so many Villagers pack heat and therefore are scared to come here. More ridiculousness!

If the murder rate mentioned by the author is 6 per 100,000, The Villages should be having at least 6 murders per year. How many years has it been since a murder took place?

We thank you for your duty as a law enforcement officer but you have now retired. Leave it to the active duty law enforcement officers and play golf and relax in this wonderful community.

I'm pretty sure nobody called it "ridiculousness" when this Milwaukee man, shopping at Aldi Supermarket intervened with his concealed weapon to shoot a robber who was waving a shotgun at the cashier and then at the concealed-carry weapon holder.

A lunatic like this can show up ANYWHERE. And if one does, I sure hope a CCW holder like Mr. Al-Mujaahid is right there to take him down!

"The Aldi customer who shot an armed robber in the store Monday won't face any criminal charges, prosecutors confirmed Friday.

Milwaukee County District Attorney John Chisholm said the law allows use of reasonable force in threatening situations, regardless of whether the shooter has a concealed-weapons permit, which the customer did......

.......At a news conference Friday, Al-Mujaahid said he and his wife stopped at the (Aldi) store, 7601 W. Fond du Lac Ave., for some last-minute dinner items. They'd never shopped there before, he said.

As they were in line to check out, he noticed the suspect pointing a shotgun at a cashier, demanding money in a very agitated way. He said he feared for the safety of himself and others so he unholstered his semiautomatic 9mm Steyr handgun, cocked it and kept it down at his side as he motioned another customer behind the robber to move away.

"It was surreal," he said.

When the robber turned the shotgun toward him, Al-Mujaahid said, he fired six or seven shots from about 20 feet away. He said he hit the suspect in the leg and forehead. The robber then dropped the shotgun and bag of money, and fled the store. Police later arrested Dierre Cotton, 20, and Edyon Hibbler, 19, who were charged late Friday with the robbery and two other holdups on the city's northwest side.

According to the complaint, Cotton's gun wasn't loaded; he thought it would just scare cashiers into giving up money more quickly.

Over in 30 seconds
Al-Mujaahid estimated 30 seconds elapsed from the time he first noticed the robber to the time he shot him. He said he knew from his recent training that you need to breathe, keep a clear head, and "commit to a decision......"


Read more from Journal Sentinel:
Aldi customer won't be charged in shooting (http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/aldi-customer-wont-be-charged-in-shooting-sk42et0-138688529.html)

[buggyone]

I called the article a piece of ridiculousness with the talk of sheep and sheepdogs. Let the trained police officers do their jobs.

In the article about the robbery, it states the man with a 9mm pistol fired six or seven times from about 20 feet away and hit the robber twice - including in the forehead. Where did the other 4 or 5 bullets go? How does someone flee alone after being shot in the forehead with a 9mm? Personally, I would not want some civilian pumping 6 or 7 bullets in a crowded supermarket during a holdup. Would a trained police officer do that?

What does an article about Milwaukee have to do with The Villages? Nothing.

What about the alleged claim of 6 per 100,000 per year murders? I have not seen 24 murders in The Villages in the 4 years I have lived here. What about the claim of 4 per 1000 aggravated assaults per year? I have not seen 1600 in the 4 years.

[Taltarzac725]

I called the article a piece of ridiculousness with the talk of sheep and sheepdogs. Let the trained police officers do their jobs.

In the article about the robbery, it states the man with a 9mm pistol fired six or seven times from about 20 feet away and hit the robber twice - including in the forehead. Where did the other 4 or 5 bullets go? How does someone flee alone after being shot in the forehead with a 9mm? Personally, I would not want some civilian pumping 6 or 7 bullets in a crowded supermarket during a holdup. Would a trained police officer do that?

What does an article about Milwaukee have to do with The Villages? Nothing.

What about the alleged claim of 6 per 100,000 per year murders? I have not seen 24 murders in The Villages in the 4 years I have lived here. What about the claim of 4 per 1000 aggravated assaults per year? I have not seen 16,000 in the 4 years.

That does seem like a bad example of someone using a concealed weapon to stop a crime in progress. I am all for people with a lot of training having concealed weapons-- especially those who have had some experience being fired upon in real life situations and are not hotheads-- but when someone looks more like a Keystone cop than a retired cop....

There has been one murder and a number of suicides by gun while I have been here over the past nine years or so. I do remember a man shooting up a mail station because of some argument between his mother and her boyfriend. That was quite a long time ago.

[MikeV]

I am a sheepdog and I believe people have the right to be sheep. Why some sheep are so set against us sheepdogs confuses me. The only thing I can attribute it to is ignorance. Those of us who have a CCP have gone through extensive background checks both federal and state wide. We are some of the most law abiding citizens so why demonize us? I respect your opinion to be a sheep so please respect my decision to be a sheepdog.

[Indydealmaker]

36073

[buggyone]

I am a sheepdog and I believe people have the right to be sheep. Why some sheep are so set against us sheepdogs confuses me. The only thing I can attribute it to is ignorance. Those of us who have a CCP have gone through extensive background checks both federal and state wide. We are the some of the most law abiding citizens so why demonize us? I respect your opinion to be a sheep so please respect my decision to be a sheepdog.

Do people know that any veteran with a DD214 can get a Concealed Carry Permit by just paying the application fee and getting fingerprinted? No test, no proficency required. Just pay the fee and get fingerprinted.

The theory obviously is that veteran has been trained in shooting - but for most in The Villages that was 20 to 40 years ago and those are skills that you do lose. If those skills were not ones you lose, police departments and the military would not require proficiency training at the range on a semi-annual basis.

I do not demonize those who carry a pistol. It is unnecessary but do it if you are well-trained and observe the rules and regulations for carrrying it. Brandish it or go into places that are prohibited and find yourself in trouble. Remember the retired police captain in Wesley Chapel. Great sheepdog he was. He will be eating Alpo for quite some time to come.

I do not need a sheepdog. I have one Shepherd and that is all I need.

[Golfingnut]

Do people know that any veteran with a DD214 can get a Concealed Carry Permit by just paying the application fee and getting fingerprinted? No test, no proficency required. Just pay the fee and get fingerprinted.

The theory obviously is that veteran has been trained in shooting - but for most in The Villages that was 20 to 40 years ago and those are skills that you do lose. If those skills were not ones you lose, police departments and the military would not require proficiency training at the range on a semi-annual basis.

I do not demonize those who carry a pistol. It is unnecessary but do it if you are well-trained and observe the rules and regulations for carrrying it. Brandish it or go into places that are prohibited and find yourself in trouble. Remember the retired police captain in Wesley Chapel. Great sheepdog he was. He will be eating Alpo for quite some time to come.

I do not need a sheepdog. I have one Shepherd and that is all I need.

You go. It is nice to see someone else try to talk sense into someone. At least for right now, I am giving up on them. I might just go to the range this afternoon to improve on my skill.

[chiefrose]

Yes, what I was referring to was HR218. I realize that it is a federal law, however, my photo ID issued by state of NJ says Permit to Carry. Even though authorized to carry under LEOSA I still must have the state issued permit. It is just NJ being NJ.

[Carl in Tampa]

Chief, I take it you choose not to carry. That's your choice, and I respect it. I don't know how much your decision was affected by the red tape in New Jersey. (Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there...........snow and all that.)

But if you are now a resident of Florida you can ignore what New Jersey thinks (except for magazine capacity restrictions if you go back there.)

You have the required photo ID from your agency; all you need is a certification that you have qualified TO FLORIDA STANDARDS in the preceding 12 months, and you are compliant with LEOSA.

If you should decide you want to go to the range and get certified, let me know and we will locate the nearest authorized range so you can get it done. You only need 40 rounds to qualify. If you are willing to drive a couple of hours away I know where you can get it done for no cost.

An alternative is to get a Florida Concealed Weapons License. Florida has reciprocity agreements with 33 other states (and a license is not required in Vermont, making 34). The main states excluded are in New England, the Midwest and the West Coast. As you would expect, there is no reciprocity with New Jersey.

In fact, New Jersey even limits the number of rounds out-of-state active duty, and retired, officers may carry in their pistols. Strange............

There are advantages to being LEOSA compliant and having a Florida CCW license for varying situations, but that's a story for another time.

Best wishes Chief,

Carl

[Carl in Tampa]

I called the article a piece of ridiculousness with the talk of sheep and sheepdogs. Let the trained police officers do their jobs.

What about the alleged claim of 6 per 100,000 per year murders? I have not seen 24 murders in The Villages in the 4 years I have lived here. What about the claim of 4 per 1000 aggravated assaults per year? I have not seen 1600 in the 4 years.


You're putting us on...........right? As if you really don't get it.

1. The Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdog story is a literary device. It is called an analogy. Closely related are allegories and parables. Such devices are used in books that include writings by Hemingway, Melville, Orwell, Bunyan and C.S. Lewis......all great authors.

2. When the Colonel quoted the murder rate of 6 per 100,000 he was talking about the average for the United States at that time, not a little slice called The Villages. You take the statistics from the entire country to establish the average. I assure you the per capita murder rate for Chicago (18.5) is much higher than here, but both are included in the average.

And, the point he was making was, "...that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another."

3. Incidentally, the figures are in for 2012, and the murder rate per 100,00 is down to 4.7. The murder rate has been trending downward for several years. Many scholars attribute this reduction to the large number of states that have instituted "must issue" laws regarding concealed weapon licenses. Criminals are now more apprehensive that their prospective victims might be armed so there are fewer confrontations.


:police:

[buggyone]

How many murders and aggravated assaults per year would you and the colonel say should be the average for The Villages per year? I can recall one murder back around 2007, I believe.

Anyhow, would a trained police officer pump 6 or 7 9mm shots at a robber in a crowded grocery store and acknowledge only 2 hit the robber? One bullet hit a leg and one hit the forehead. Kind of a wide shot grouping, isn't it? How does a robber flee the store after being shot in the forehead with a 9mm? If it was only a grazing wound, that bullet continued it's flight. Very foolish to do, don't you agree?

Leave the cowboy heroics to the trained police officers.

:popcorn:

[chiefrose]

Chief, I take it you choose not to carry. That's your choice, and I respect it. I don't know how much your decision was affected by the red tape in New Jersey. (Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there...........snow and all that.)

But if you are now a resident of Florida you can ignore what New Jersey thinks (except for magazine capacity restrictions if you go back there.)

You have the required photo ID from your agency; all you need is a certification that you have qualified TO FLORIDA STANDARDS in the preceding 12 months, and you are compliant with LEOSA.

If you should decide you want to go to the range and get certified, let me know and we will locate the nearest authorized range so you can get it done. You only need 40 rounds to qualify. If you are willing to drive a couple of hours away I know where you can get it done for no cost.

An alternative is to get a Florida Concealed Weapons License. Florida has reciprocity agreements with 33 other states (and a license is not required in Vermont, making 34). The main states excluded are in New England, the Midwest and the West Coast. As you would expect, there is no reciprocity with New Jersey.

In fact, New Jersey even limits the number of rounds out-of-state active duty, and retired, officers may carry in their pistols. Strange............

There are advantages to being LEOSA compliant and having a Florida CCW license for varying situations, but that's a story for another time.

Best wishes Chief,

Carl

Carl:

Unfortunately, still a NJ resident for the time being so I comply with their requirements. By their standard we have to qualify twice per year - 100 rounds, day and night fire. We also have to pay a $50 renewal fee per year. The state has to get their cut.

Hopefully, next year I will declare Florida as my primary residence. I understand from another retired LEO here in the Villages that the Sumter SO qualifies us retired guys for HR218. I believe it is done every January. Anyway that is the plan.

Take care.

Rich

[Carl in Tampa]

Chief,

I look forward to meeting you one of these days. Right now I'm somewhat immobile, in physical therapy recovering from major spine surgery.

My former agency, 2 hours away, does retiree qualifications monthly, for free.

In the mean time Florida law allows you to have a firearm in your car as long as it is "cased" which can mean simply in a closed glove compartment or in a holster with a snap on it, but you can't be wearing it.

Also, non-residents are authorized to obtain a Florida CCW license.

Stay safe.

Carl

[Carl in Tampa]

How many murders and aggravated assaults per year would you and the colonel say should be the average for The Villages per year? I can recall one murder back around 2007, I believe.

Anyhow, would a trained police officer pump 6 or 7 9mm shots at a robber in a crowded grocery store and acknowledge only 2 hit the robber? One bullet hit a leg and one hit the forehead. Kind of a wide shot grouping, isn't it? How does a robber flee the store after being shot in the forehead with a 9mm? If it was only a grazing wound, that bullet continued it's flight. Very foolish to do, don't you agree?

Leave the cowboy heroics to the trained police officers.

:popcorn:


Alas, it has become painfully evident that you do not read the material presented to you with perception.

1. The low murder rate in The Villages is exactly the Colonel's point "that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another." Don't you get that?

2. The news account regarding the convenience store shooting says that the "highly agitated" armed robber "pointed the shotgun" at the CCW holder, who "feared for his life." What would you have had him do, wait until the robber shot him at close range with a shotgun?

Included in the news account is a statement from the Milwaukee County District Attorney: "He disrupted an act that potentially exposed himself and others to great bodily harm," Chisholm said. Video footage from the store showed "he acted reasonably and in a controlled manner during the encounter," Chisholm said. "Reasonably and in a controlled manner." Get it?

3. Your almost childlike faith in how much better a "trained police officer" would perform in such circumstances is touching, but misplaced. It is one thing to stand up and punch holes in a piece of cardboard on a pistol range; it is entirely different to be in an armed confrontation in which you are in grave danger of being injured or killed. No one knows in advance how he will perform under such a stress.

It may have escaped your notice, but "trained police officers" are wounded or killed in armed confrontations all too often.

I have lost friends and comrades to line of duty injury and death.

:police: :police: :police:

[NoMoSno]

Alas, it has become painfully evident that you do not read the material presented to you with perception.

1. The low murder rate in The Villages is exactly the Colonel's point "that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another." Don't you get that?

2. The news account regarding the convenience store shooting says that the "highly agitated" armed robber "pointed the shotgun" at the CCW holder, who "feared for his life." What would you have had him do, wait until the robber shot him at close range with a shotgun?

Included in the news account is a statement from the Milwaukee County District Attorney: "He disrupted an act that potentially exposed himself and others to great bodily harm," Chisholm said. Video footage from the store showed "he acted reasonably and in a controlled manner during the encounter," Chisholm said. "Reasonably and in a controlled manner." Get it?

3. Your almost childlike faith in how much better a "trained police officer" would perform in such circumstances is touching, but misplaced. It is one thing to stand up and punch holes in a piece of cardboard on a pistol range; it is entirely different to be in an armed confrontation in which you are in grave danger of being injured or killed. No one knows in advance how he will perform under such a stress.

It may have escaped your notice, but "trained police officers" are wounded or killed in armed confrontations all too often.

I have lost friends and comrades to line of duty injury and death.

:police: :police: :police:

:agree: Well said Carl!

[kittygilchrist]

Carl, prayers for an easy recovery. Keep the faith.
Kitty

[buggyone]

Alas, it has become painfully evident that you do not read the material presented to you with perception.

1. The low murder rate in The Villages is exactly the Colonel's point "that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another." Don't you get that?

2. The news account regarding the convenience store shooting says that the "highly agitated" armed robber "pointed the shotgun" at the CCW holder, who "feared for his life." What would you have had him do, wait until the robber shot him at close range with a shotgun?

Included in the news account is a statement from the Milwaukee County District Attorney: "He disrupted an act that potentially exposed himself and others to great bodily harm," Chisholm said. Video footage from the store showed "he acted reasonably and in a controlled manner during the encounter," Chisholm said. "Reasonably and in a controlled manner." Get it?

3. Your almost childlike faith in how much better a "trained police officer" would perform in such circumstances is touching, but misplaced. It is one thing to stand up and punch holes in a piece of cardboard on a pistol range; it is entirely different to be in an armed confrontation in which you are in grave danger of being injured or killed. No one knows in advance how he will perform under such a stress.

It may have escaped your notice, but "trained police officers" are wounded or killed in armed confrontations all too often.

I have lost friends and comrades to line of duty injury and death.

:police: :police: :police:


A well-intentioned civilian playing John Wayne can cause more harm to bystanders than the robber. Obviously, the civilian was not too good of a shot to hit his target with a two shot grouping of 5 feet. Only 2 of 7 bullets hit the target and the robber still left the store on his own power.

Anyhow, you and I will never agree so 'nuff said on this topic for me.
:ohdear:
:popcorn:

[Carl in Tampa]

A well-intentioned civilian playing John Wayne can cause more harm to bystanders than the robber. Obviously, the civilian was not too good of a shot to hit his target with a two shot grouping of 5 feet. Only 2 of 7 bullets hit the target and the robber still left the store on his own power.

Anyhow, you and I will never agree so 'nuff said on this topic for me.
:ohdear:
:popcorn:


He was not "playing John Wayne." He was defending himself against an armed criminal who was pointing a shotgun at him. It is amazing that you don't comprehend that.

Your assumption that the CCW holder was not a good shot again ignores the stress associated with having an "agitated" criminal pointing a shotgun at him.

The criminal left the store without his shotgun and without the money, and was apprehended.

Good outcome.

You are correct that we will never agree. You want everyone to be Sheep. That is not practical in the real world.

And, again......... there is nothing wrong with being a Sheep. It simply means you go into the world unarmed, as most people do.

Among them, protecting us all, are the Sheepdogs.

:)

[Carl in Tampa]

Carl, prayers for an easy recovery. Keep the faith.
Kitty

Thank you, Kitty. It has become a long struggle. The leg muscles are well developed but the nerves sending them the messages to support my weight are damaged, and I'm told that nerves regenerate very slowly.

I haven't given up.

Thanks again,

Carl
:)

[buggyone]

The 4 or 5 stray 9mm bullets could have very easily killed bystanders in the super market. I doubt if the police would have shot in such a situation.

Anyhow, 'nuff said on this topic for me.

Best wishes for a great recovery from the back surgery.

Buggy

[ilovetv]

The 4 or 5 stray 9mm bullets could have very easily killed bystanders in the super market. I doubt if the police would have shot in such a situation.

Anyhow, 'nuff said on this topic for me.

Best wishes for a great recovery from the back surgery.

Buggy

IF you'd watch the Video interview (in the linked article) of the man who defended the cashier, himself, his wife, and the others from a lunatic waving a SHOTGUN at them, you would see the CCW man explain how there was only one person in line between himself and the robber waving the shotgun, and the CCW carrier was able to make eye contact with that man to signal for him to step back and away from the robber. This man understood what the CCW carrier wanted to do to defend them, and he got out of the line of fire exactly as was needed.

What kind of cold-blooded brother, husband or father of that lady cashier would demand that this CCW carrier do NOTHING to help her, when he COULD help her, and help her safely--as he did???

And by the way, Aldi is not an all-night "convenience" store. It is a supermarket owned by the same company as Trader Joes, and we have two Aldi stores here. A loser with a shotgun could show up and do the same thing at any store, anywhere in TV or elsewhere.

See video interview with CCW carrier, under the headline and on the left side:

Aldi customer won't be charged in shooting (http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/aldi-customer-wont-be-charged-in-shooting-sk42et0-138688529.html)

[billethkid]

IF you'd watch the Video interview (in the linked article) of the man who defended the cashier, himself, his wife, and the others from a lunatic waving a SHOTGUN at them, you would see the CCW man explain how there was only one person in line between himself and the robber waving the shotgun, and the CCW carrier was able to make eye contact with that man to signal for him to step back and away from the robber. This man understood what the CCW carrier wanted to do to defend them, and he got out of the line of fire exactly as was needed.

What kind of cold-blooded brother, husband or father of that lady cashier would demand that this CCW carrier do NOTHING to help her, when he COULD help her, and help her safely--as he did???

And by the way, Aldi is not an all-night "convenience" store. It is a supermarket owned by the same company as Trader Joes, and we have two Aldi stores here. A loser with a shotgun could show up and do the same thing at any store, anywhere in TV or elsewhere.

See video interview with CCW carrier, under the headline and on the left side:

Aldi customer won't be charged in shooting (http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/aldi-customer-wont-be-charged-in-shooting-sk42et0-138688529.html)

Now you are messing up the banter by presenting the facts of the matter!!!!:eclipsee_gold_cup:

[chiefrose]

Carl:

Hope you have a speedy and successful recovery.

Rich

[Carl in Tampa]

Carl:

Hope you have a speedy and successful recovery.

Rich

Thank you sir. We must get together one of these days.

Carl